R8 competition ...

[harjitmann]

With the Gallardo having a sticker price of £120k in the UK, I'd be surprised not to be able to find a few examples around the £85k mark, which is what you'd spend on an R8 with a few toys thrown in.

Oh look. An £85k Gallardo. 2004 model. http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/97563.htm

I don't understand the concept of "overpowered". Why would a supposedly "faster" (at least "more powerful") car not be considered as competition for the R8 if you can buy it for the same price? Sure, rule out the UNDERPOWERED cars, because they can't compete on power. But a faster car MORE than competes on power... so having an upper limit is a bit silly.

If you can buy a "supercar" for R8 money, surely that has to be seen as competition?

Oh, and the Carrera 4S is the PRIMARY competitor for the R8 no matter what Paul says.

Well now you are just contradicting yourself. If the competition cannot by underpowered compared to the R8, how can the R8 be underpowered compared to the competition. Seems a bit unfair dont you think, and slightly hypocritical? And I was unaware of the pricing for the Gallardo in Europe. Here in the US the Gallardo brand new is 220K whereas the Audi is 110K loaded, and a used Gallardo is 160K at the lowest. Though I believe that anyone who gets a used Lamborghini, or any used supercar for that matter is a bit pathetic. If you cant afford the cars brand new, you shouldn't be buying them in the first place. Shame on you... The used car option is for brokes and the like...

[BigQid]

Becasuse that's how the ricers build supercars, not how the sausage-eaters do it.

Sausage-eaters? That's pretty gay. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I doubt it will catch on as a term for german cars.

[jampoTT]

Sausage-eaters? That's pretty gay. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I doubt it will catch on as a term for german cars.

Gay... hehehehehe

I work for a German company. Its ingrained.

[jampoTT]

Well now you are just contradicting yourself. If the competition cannot by underpowered compared to the R8, how can the R8 be underpowered compared to the competition. Seems a bit unfair dont you think, and slightly hypocritical? And I was unaware of the pricing for the Gallardo in Europe. Here in the US the Gallardo brand new is 220K whereas the Audi is 110K loaded, and a used Gallardo is 160K at the lowest. Though I believe that anyone who gets a used Lamborghini, or any used supercar for that matter is a bit pathetic. If you cant afford the cars brand new, you shouldn't be buying them in the first place. Shame on you... The used car option is for brokes and the like...

Slightly hypocritical, maybe... but lets say 400bhp was your minimum performance requirement to get some "thrills", then I can't see why you wouldn't consider a 500bhp car if it was in the same price range?

Thing is, there are many reasons why people settle on a particular car. Brand loyalty, budget, perception of quality, pose-factor, power, practicality and loads more besides.

Suggesting cast iron "rules" as to what can (or can't) be considered as "competition" for any car is (to be honest) rather silly, as different people will have different buying criteria. For some, the R8 can't be a competitior for the Carrera 4S *BECAUSE* it only has 2 seats. But that doesn't mean that it matters for someone else.

And to suggest that people should only buy a Supercar "brand new" is completely missing the point. If there wasn't a 2nd hand market, there wouldn't BE any new Supercars, because very few people can afford to drop £100k+ on a car which would have £0 resale value as soon as they took delivery. That's plain silly. An £85k 2yr old Gallardo that has covered just a few thousand miles, but has already dropped 1/3 of its original value, makes a sound buying decision for some. Of course the people that can afford to lose £40k in under 2 years on a car won't really care, but I'm not one of them.

For me (at least) money *IS* a big factor. I have to bear in mind that, for the money I'm looking at spending on the R8, I could buy myself a rather nice "badge" - Aston Martin AMV8, Gallardo, or run an RS4 and an Ariel Atom for the days I want some thrills. My £80k will only buy me so much, so I have to weigh up the appeal of a "badge" (Gallardo) versus having a brand new (and possibly better) car. I've already weighed up my previous dream car (AMV8) against the R8 and decided I still want the R8 (which I was hoping would be £65k rather than £75k)...

So... for someone like me, who isn't rich, one of the key factors IS price - and more specifically, what other "nice" cars are available for that sort of cash.

[Paul]

Wowsers!

I did wonder whether this thread would break out in heated discussion!

I’m glad it’s got people talking, but I hope it continues as a discussion and people put their points of view across in a similar manner that existing posts have already done ... so continued debate and discussion will continue

I’ll reply to a few posts that I’ve not had time to do since my last visit ... then I may update the initial post and possible put a second list of cars in it ... even though they don’t meet my own ‘guidelines’ ... due to continual posts that things like 911s with 2+2 seating should be on the list ... although that might not be till nearer the end of the week.

[Paul]

Paul,

I think your arbitrary "limit" of 2 seats is a tad restrictive, especially when some of the "competition" has jump seats at best...

The Jag XKR is arguably #2 competitor for this car, after the Porsche 911 Carrera 4S, which you are ALSO ruling out because it claims to be able to seat 4.

I can see why, from certain points of view, that only considering 2 seater cars is restrictive ... but, I wanted to get a good idea of cars that ... imho ... offer the same, or at least similar, capabilities and performance ... hence why the 2 seater requirement is mandatory.

A 2+2 (911 etc) might be an option for some people ... and might be considered instead of an R8 ... but if you turn it around and want to look at competition for a 911 and I don't it would be unrealistic for people to write off the R8 because it doesn’t have ‘seats’ in the back that could take a couple of ‘small’ people, or young children ... therefore I will continue to rule out anything that isn’t a 2 seater from my list ... imho if something is “direct competition” each car should essentially be the same basic car ... i.e. 2 seater and as close to the same power to weight ratio as possible ... hence my allowance of +/-12% for ‘bhp’ and ‘bhp/ton’ figures.

More likely, the R8 competition is bascically "whatever GT or Sportscars are made in the £70-90k bracket"...

This would include Aston AMV8, Porsche 911 Carrera 4S (not GT3, that's too hardcore, and the R8 isn't).

If I can find official specifications for the AMV8 I’ll add it to the list if it fits my guidelines closely enough. As I’ve mentioned above ... I’ll not be including any 911 with back seats ... so that leaves just the GT3 and GT3 RS ... although you say the GT3 is too hardcore ... but, when you consider that the GT3 0-62 times, bhp and bhp/ton figures are not too dissimilar from the R8 ... it's not inconceivable that people will consider them in the same market sector ... the GT3 might be targeted at the track enthusiast, the RS even more so ... but, until we know just how the R8 drives and rides ... all we can currently consider are those horrible things you could possibly call ... the ‘black and white’ figures.

It very much DOES include 2nd hand exotica which have depreciated to this level, including the F430, Lambo Gallardo. Why? Because if someone has a particular budget in mind, they will consider the other options available. Granted they can't be bought new for R8 money, but if they CAN be bought 2nd hand for that sort of cash...

I think I’ve said before ... I do not consider cost to be a factor ... therefore if you could pick up a McLaren F1 for £80,000 I wouldn’t consider it competition for the R8 (I wouldn’t let the fact it has 3 seats rule it out completely ) ... but, it’s too powerful and too fast by comparison. I don’t know how much a second hand Ferrari 360 would cost ... but that’s made the list based on both bhp and bhp/ton figures ... although being almost 10% better on the bhp/ton figure it shaves off more than 10% from the R8’s 0-62mph time ... which will likely make it significantly quicker in most driving situations ... so I'd expect most sections of comparison reviews to favour the 360 over the R8.
While I appreciate people can buy a car based on budget ... that isn’t why I started this thread ... I want to look for cars that will carry the same number of people (and not more) ... and will do so at the same, or similar pace.

[Paul]

The draw of the R8 has little to do with it having just 2 seats. Its obvious competition is the 911 C4S. Overlooking this fact is silly, especially in light of the fact that it might still outperform the r8 with the extra seats and rear engine set up. The R8 is special because it is a mid-engine V8/V10 that is not a Ferrari or Lamborghini. For some strange reason, car companies have decided that it was too difficult to make cars this way. Because of the R8 and the Lexus GT, mid engine sports cars will be more common, the R8 will have to work hard to be seen as the best one, especially if BMW gets in the game or Porsche gets hip.

I think my response to JampoTT’s post above covers my thoughts ... but let me put it another way ... if you had kids and wanted a sports car you may well consider a 911 with 2+2 seating ... but you wouldn’t consider an R8 as it can’t carry your bambinos in the small back seats - because it doesn't have any ... therefore I will only consider 2 seaters for the initial list I've been maintaining ... if you think that I’m being silly in doing so then that’s fine ... we’re all entitled to our own opinion and I’m sure even Audi may consider virtually any 911 as competition for the R8 ... much of the motoring press will likely consider many 2+2 cars as competition for the R8 as well ... but I’m not ... sorry, but there you have it.

[Paul]

With the Gallardo having a sticker price of £120k in the UK, I'd be surprised not to be able to find a few examples around the £85k mark, which is what you'd spend on an R8 with a few toys thrown in.

Oh look. An £85k Gallardo. 2004 model. http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/97563.htm

I don't understand the concept of "overpowered". Why would a supposedly "faster" (at least "more powerful") car not be considered as competition for the R8 if you can buy it for the same price? Sure, rule out the UNDERPOWERED cars, because they can't compete on power. But a faster car MORE than competes on power... so having an upper limit is a bit silly.

If you can buy a "supercar" for R8 money, surely that has to be seen as competition?

Oh, and the Carrera 4S is the PRIMARY competitor for the R8 no matter what Paul says.

If you consider a more powerful and faster car to be competition for the R8 ... would you consider a less powerful and slower car to be competition for the R8 ... as it appears you wouldn’t (if I've read your post properly - which may not necessarily be the case, it's been a long day) ... so why should I count cars considerably more powerful, or considerably faster, as competition for the R8 ... ... because in your own words you wouldn’t consider the R8 as competition for them.

I’ve considered a margin of power and power to weight ratio and have allowed a +/-12% margin on bhp and bhp/ton ... if the car is a 2 seater and is within the power margins I would (and have) include them as competition ... this would allow a lighter and less powerful car to be faster than the R8 and still be considered as competition because it’s 0-62mph times would likely be similar ... and in a similar manner a more powerful car that returns similar power to weight ratio figure would be considered as competition ... but so far I’ve not spotted many that are considerably more powerful yet return a similar bhp/ton figure to be included ... you might note that the Merc SL55 is considerably more powerful, yet returns a similar bhp/ton figure, similar 0-62mph time (although that’s not a requirement for inclusion) and has therefore made the my list … as I’ve said before in this thread ... the bhp/ton figure is probably the best indicator for competition (as long as it’s allied with reasonable handling) as you could have a light and less powerful car return similar acceleration speeds ... and or ... power to weight ratio figures ... to produce similar performance and thus give the owner similar A to B performance ability.

[Paul]

When I get time I'm going to update the initial post ... which will include the addition of an extra list of 'competitors' to the R8 ... this additional list will include 2+2 style seating cars ... and maybe even more powerful/faster cars than the R8 if demand merits it.

So ... please keep the posts coming ... keep them in the same sensible discussion/debate manner than they have been to date ... I'm sure we all enjoy a good discussion ... especially when it revolves around the R8 ...