Pirelli P1 Issue - Page 2


  1. Welcome to Audi R8 Forum : Audi R8 forums – General discussion forum for Audi R8

    Welcome to Audi R8 Forum : Audi R8 forums - a website dedicated to all things Audi R8.

    You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, at no cost, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, Join Audi R8 Forum : Audi R8 forums today!
     
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 25

Thread: Pirelli P1 Issue

  1. #11
    Member NCPM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    37

    Re: Pirelli P1 Issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Helldriver View Post
    Not the tyres fault and issue, wrong handling of the tyre by user.
    It's amazing you can tell all of that from your armchair. The tires have always been at the correct pressure. As far as the alignment the wear is even.

    You're entitled to your opinion but I do not see how this happens to a tire when everything is to spec. And yes, I actually drive the car too.

  2. Remove Advertisements
    Audi R8 Forum
    Advertisements
     

  3. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Posts
    149

    Re: Pirelli P1 Issue

    I think the real problem is that you have Pirelli's still

  4. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    switzerland
    Posts
    769

    Re: Pirelli P1 Issue

    Quote Originally Posted by NCPM View Post
    It's amazing you can tell all of that from your armchair. The tires have always been at the correct pressure. As far as the alignment the wear is even.

    You're entitled to your opinion but I do not see how this happens to a tire when everything is to spec. And yes, I actually drive the car too.
    yes I can tell that from my armchair as I see the damaged tyre picture which is enough to judge what happened. A tyre can have even wear and still the wrong suspension alignment with too much toe in, eg its on the border for everyday driving with low speeds where you do most of your miles/km so the tyre wears even but too much for occasional high speed driving (additional force on joints/bearing which results in toe in gets bigger then you have it on your alignment report, means your 20-25' toe in rear in low speed causing the tyre to still wear even raises to 40-45' toe in at high speed which is a lot additional load on the tyre) where the additional forced tyre slipage causes overload and damage the carcasse.

    The typical tyre cracks on Pirellis are 45 till 90 degress to yours or in the 3 water drainage lines (google and look at the pictures and you see it) but not only on the outside and inline with driving forward directly as yours. This shows without any doubt a damaged side wall carcasse caused by tyre overload and the top layer cracks as its already loose underneath. It also shows that the force comes 90 degrees to the tyre (only toe in and curves cause that kind of force, additionally straight on that part of the tyre is hardly on the street). Pirelli cracks comes from traction forwards when rubber is too hard in cold temps and breaks on the surface thats why they are 45 till 90 degrees to yours or between the blocks in the water drainage lines.

    How do you know everything is to the spec and you always have the right tyre pressure? Eg:
    - What pressure are you running when you drive 290kmh, can you tell me? Do you constantly monitor it with eg telematic and can proof that to yourself that is always correct?
    - the toe in on rear due to OEM is from 8' till 25'....with 8' toe in the toe in raises in high speed to approx 15-20' witch is still in the spec, with 25' it raises to 40' till 45' which is far outside the spec. Combine that with too less tyre pressure and you have your damaged tyre picture and root causes I explained. My R8V8 Gen 1 Vmax is 10kmh slower with rear toe in 25' then Toe 0 (tyre PZ N0 305 30 20 on 11x20 offset 30) absolutely nothing else was changed (same outside temp/airpressure/same highway strip...). I tested that personally myself with proper racing equipment telematics! To raise Vmax by 10kmh on speed levels of around 290kmh that equals to around +100 till 150hp. So just imagine how much force that additionally is on the tyre as it is the only cause that breaks the car to 10kmh less Vmax.
    - the point you come up with for sure is why the OEM gives you 8' till 25' toe in rear within spec. Quite simple: did you drive the R8 with 8' or even 0, rear end is very loose on high speed and you need titanium austrich balls or long year racing experince that you can even do that. With toe in 25' it drives straight on very stable but understeers like mad...my R8 was driven 8 years with max speed of 160kmh (you can read that out with the forensic tools of the OEM) and had 25' toe in rear by the previous owner and thats the typ of customer Audi had in mind with the R8....
    to be continued....
    Last edited by Helldriver; 06-14-2019 at 06:12 AM.
    Notice: We guarantee fast service, no matter how long it takesHidden Content

  5. Remove Advertisements
    Audi R8 Forum
    Advertisements
     

  6. #14

    Join Date
    May 2019
    Location
    Madison, WI
    Posts
    54

    Re: Pirelli P1 Issue

    Quote Originally Posted by NCPM View Post
    I have a 2017 R8 with less than 10k on it and recently heard a slight, repetitive thump from one of the tires. Inspection confirmed the driver's side rear tire had a significant gash in it all the way down to the underlying steal belts, (see photo).

    Attachment 236370

    Looks to be purely cosmetic.

    I'm kidding. So, I'm not a fan of the Pirelli's and have the following questions. Any feed back would be appreciated:

    1. All of the tires have some tread left on them. The assumption is I cannot or should not replace the single defective tire.
    2. If I want to abandon the Pirelli's then the assumption is I should replace all of the tires at this point as opposed to replacing the two rear P1's. In other words I shouldn't mix tires from different manufacturers, (e.g. Michelins on the rear and then eventually replacing the front tires to match - correct?)
    3. Are the Michelin PS4S's the tire of choice these days?
    4. Anyone in the Raleigh/Durham area, (North Carolina, USA), that can recommend a place to get these tires replaced?

    Thank in advance for any advice!
    NCPM,

    You have a a lot of info coming at you - I won't try to address it all, but hopefully help with your original question. So you know the background of the person giving you a response - Our tires were one of my responsibilities as one of the four chassis design and release engineers on the '05-'06 Ford GT. I also did ride handling development on the FGT. I am sorry to see your badly damaged tire. Good time for the PS4S's.


    1-2-3. Definitely replace tires in pairs (exact same tires). If there is not a lot of tire life left and big difference in age (more than 1 year) then it is time to head straight to the PS4S's. I agree completely with Dave L and others on these tires I will discuss below compared to two other tires.

    The cracking - Pirellis are bit known for this with age. Too much toe will cause tire tread block feathering (and cupping if too much toe change...typically in braking). I don't see that here. We could talk about your usage, tire age, alignment and so on, but what I know is you didn't abuse the tire, especially if your alignment is within OEM spec (unless you were way under-inflated, which I also don't see signs of in tire wear). We could debate if the toe is too high, which I will be going through on mine in the next few weeks, but I promise the tire was developed for and run with those specs at Audi - low speed, high speed, serious handling, 24 hour durability, etc. Even if you were out a little the tire should not have this cracking. You may add some heat and uneven wear, but not overload or damage the tire like this shows. You can only truly overload these tires by going well above the top speed (aero load) or having an event in which tire damage is the least of your concerns.

    I am going to write the following up in a detailed report and post when complete, but I have had a chance to compare the OEM PZeros (OEM sizes on 19's) on a 2011 R8 V10, the Hankook Ventus V12's at OEM sizes on my 2012 R8 V10. The short story is the PS4S's are 1-2 points better overall than the Pzero's for me and 3+ points better than the Hankook Ventus V12's.
    So for me so far:
    Steering - the PS4S are 1-2 point better than the PZeros for center feel, steering torque level and consistency, linearity/direct, feedback and wheel fight (steering wheel kicking back and forth with bumps in a straight line). The V12's are awful for steering and these attributes.
    Ride - The PS4S's are 1-2 points better than the Pzero's for primary ride (big rounded bumps) and short choppy bumps and impacts. The impacts especially feel less harsh and more "rounded" (Damped) ont he PS4's. The V12's always just felt like I was bouncing on the tire.
    Handling - at about 90% the grip level the PS4s' were only a little better for me than the Pzero's, but the communication of the limit, the predictability and feedback for me was 1-2 points better than the Pzero's. And drastically better than the V12's.

    And I just had happen what others have noted...the V12's "went off" like we have in racing. Badly. I got about 500 miles of spirited driving in which they had decent grip, but were very vague, no feedback and not linear to suddenly no grip. I was aggressive on throttle in a straight line even and the V12's initially had decent grip with no traction control events. Then at 500 miles the traction control went crazy constantly. No grip. Done.

    Hope this helps...I have this set of Hankook V12's with a lot of tread for sale! lol
    2012 Audi R8 | V10 | Manual | AWE Exhaust | Carbon Blades | Carbon Engine Bay | Tuscan Brown Interior 2009 Buell 1125R | Barker Exhaust and ECM Tune | Michelin Pilot Road3's

    Ahlman Performance LLC | Audi R8 Ohlins Coil-Overs | Chassis Development

  7. #15
    Member NCPM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    37

    Re: Pirelli P1 Issue

    I'll agree that you know way more about tires, alignment and forces than I. All I know is that the tire pressure is set to spec according to my mechanic. We had a discussion about this as the manual says one thing and the door jamb sticker says something quite higher. I'd be interested on your take regarding that topic. I'll also add the tire pressure sensors seem very sensitive and have indicated [rarely] any slight deviation from their setting.

    I will admit I do not know what the current alignment spec is but I'll soon find out, (I purchased the care used 2 years ago - the Pirelli's are the original tires). I also understand your explanation regarding the wear pattern has little to do with the current alignment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Helldriver View Post
    How do you know everything is to the spec and you always have the right tyre pressure? Eg:
    - What pressure are you running when you drive 290kmh, can you tell me? Do you constantly monitor it with eg telematic and can proof that to yourself that is always correct?
    No - I do not know the tire pressure when I drive 290kmh. No one does - you included. But if the alignment is correct and the starting pressure is correct then shouldn't I be able to drive the car however I wish within reason? In other words, its a sports car and its made to be driven hard if one chooses. I have had multiple sports cars and have never run into this sort of issue. Seems pretty fragile if everything is set up correctly and it can't be driven hard. If that's the case whats the point of ownership?

    I appreciate your insight.

  8. #16
    Member NCPM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    37

    Re: Pirelli P1 Issue

    @Scott-AhlmanPerformanceLLC - Thank you for the detailed information and your comparison of the PS4S's against the other brands. Valuable insight. The Pirelli's on the car are at least 2.5 years old. I bought the car used a little over 2 years ago with about 3600 miles on it. The alignment could be way off but as I am replacing all 4 tires with PS4S's and getting an alignment done I hopefully will not run into this issue again. Any recommendation on tire pressure for 20" 245/30 (front) and 305/30 (rear)? The owners manual says one thing and the door jamb sticker values, which the manual mentions should be consulted if different, seem very high, (49psi front, 41psi rear).

    I see you are in the Mad City - been there quite a few times - fun town. Thanks again!

  9. #17

    Join Date
    May 2019
    Location
    Madison, WI
    Posts
    54

    Re: Pirelli P1 Issue

    Quote Originally Posted by NCPM View Post
    I'll agree that you know way more about tires, alignment and forces than I. All I know is that the tire pressure is set to spec according to my mechanic. We had a discussion about this as the manual says one thing and the door jamb sticker says something quite higher. I'd be interested on your take regarding that topic. I'll also add the tire pressure sensors seem very sensitive and have indicated [rarely] any slight deviation from their setting.

    I will admit I do not know what the current alignment spec is but I'll soon find out, (I purchased the care used 2 years ago - the Pirelli's are the original tires). I also understand your explanation regarding the wear pattern has little to do with the current alignment.



    No - I do not know the tire pressure when I drive 290kmh. No one does - you included. But if the alignment is correct and the starting pressure is correct then shouldn't I be able to drive the car however I wish within reason? In other words, its a sports car and its made to be driven hard if one chooses. I have had multiple sports cars and have never run into this sort of issue. Seems pretty fragile if everything is set up correctly and it can't be driven hard. If that's the case whats the point of ownership?

    I appreciate your insight.

    Glad my explanation makes sense. Definitely don't need to be an expert on chassis or tires for what you are seeing. But as an expert on this topic...you did not abuse the car or tires. People would be amazed by what the R8 was put through in development.

    Tire pressure is going up with speed (heat), which is better for load and the tire. So if you know what the starting pressure was at or close to placard on the door then you were fine on pressures at high speed. Tires should not crack like yours show. This IS a tire problem.
    2012 Audi R8 | V10 | Manual | AWE Exhaust | Carbon Blades | Carbon Engine Bay | Tuscan Brown Interior 2009 Buell 1125R | Barker Exhaust and ECM Tune | Michelin Pilot Road3's

    Ahlman Performance LLC | Audi R8 Ohlins Coil-Overs | Chassis Development

  10. #18

    Join Date
    May 2019
    Location
    Madison, WI
    Posts
    54

    Re: Pirelli P1 Issue

    Quote Originally Posted by NCPM View Post
    @Scott-AhlmanPerformanceLLC - Thank you for the detailed information and your comparison of the PS4S's against the other brands. Valuable insight. The Pirelli's on the car are at least 2.5 years old. I bought the car used a little over 2 years ago with about 3600 miles on it. The alignment could be way off but as I am replacing all 4 tires with PS4S's and getting an alignment done I hopefully will not run into this issue again. Any recommendation on tire pressure for 20" 245/30 (front) and 305/30 (rear)? The owners manual says one thing and the door jamb sticker values, which the manual mentions should be consulted if different, seem very high, (49psi front, 41psi rear).

    I see you are in the Mad City - been there quite a few times - fun town. Thanks again!
    NCPM - You are most welcome. Glad to help. You won't run into this issue again with the PS4S's. Unfortunately, I don't have a good recommendation for your 20" tires...are they OEM? If so I would go with the placard on the door pressures.

    Yes, Madtown is fun! Let me know if you are ever this way. Great twisties in the hills here. I spent a lot of time in Charlotte area as well with my work in NASCAR. Some good times on Lake Norman a few times.
    2012 Audi R8 | V10 | Manual | AWE Exhaust | Carbon Blades | Carbon Engine Bay | Tuscan Brown Interior 2009 Buell 1125R | Barker Exhaust and ECM Tune | Michelin Pilot Road3's

    Ahlman Performance LLC | Audi R8 Ohlins Coil-Overs | Chassis Development

  11. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Orange County California
    Posts
    182

    Re: Pirelli P1 Issue

    NCPM, I had 3 of my 4 Pirelli PZeros develop cracks after only 4 years. My 2014 R8 only had 6,000 miles at the time and the car is a garage queen. Switched to PS4S and they are so much better! I have a long relationship with the tire store that sold me the Michelins and they sent the 4 Pirelli tires (that came with the car new) back to Pirelli for inspection and Pirelli gave the tire store $624 which they passed on back to me. I had been a loyal Pirelli fan since the 1990's but now have Michelins on all 3 of my cars as the last set of Pirellis on each of my cars has been disappointing. Seems like Pirelli is not the same quality tire it used to be.

    To Helldriver and Scott-Ahlmann, my Audi dealer recommends 40 front and 38 rear as my car mainly sees road and highway use below 100mph. I've had psi set to 45/41 factory specs before and the front seems to be too light/bouncy to the point that I feel that traction is compromised. Is this normal?
    Last edited by OC R8; 06-15-2019 at 09:06 AM.

  12. #20

    Join Date
    May 2019
    Location
    Madison, WI
    Posts
    54
    OC R8, I understand what you are saying on the higher preasures, but don't feel the same in normal mode. In sport mode it feels like I am bouncing on the tires often. Locked up suspension.

    Since the later R8s show 39/36 that is what I would run for lower pressure. I will be trying this later today or tomorrow and give you guys my feedback for what it is worth.

    So your Audi dealership recommendation is close to those lower numbers but I would use the Audi R8 engineers numbers. Regardless, if you like the ride, handling and steering where you are then that is probably best.

    The only thing else I will say is that the pressures Audi specifies take into account everything including significant evasive maneuvers that hopefully you never need but may.
    2012 Audi R8 | V10 | Manual | AWE Exhaust | Carbon Blades | Carbon Engine Bay | Tuscan Brown Interior 2009 Buell 1125R | Barker Exhaust and ECM Tune | Michelin Pilot Road3's

    Ahlman Performance LLC | Audi R8 Ohlins Coil-Overs | Chassis Development

  13. Remove Advertisements
    Audi R8 Forum
    Advertisements
     

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v4.3.0