Frame "tearing" on early models documentation


  1. Welcome to Audi R8 Forum : Audi R8 forums – General discussion forum for Audi R8

    Welcome to Audi R8 Forum : Audi R8 forums - a website dedicated to all things Audi R8.

    You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, at no cost, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, Join Audi R8 Forum : Audi R8 forums today!
     
Page 1 of 5 1234 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 42

Thread: Frame "tearing" on early models documentation

  1. #1
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Posts
    19

    Frame "tearing" on early models documentation

    So after I read about the frame tearing issues on earlier models. I decided to take action on repairing it before it happened.
    I located an Audi certified aluminum repair shop. They knew exactly what I was talking about when I called and exactly what to do already.

    I figured I'd post some of the work done here so you guys can check it out.
    Frame "tearing" on early models documentation-0466959690101054-van-canning_014.jpgFrame "tearing" on early models documentation-0466959690101054-van-canning_010.jpgFrame "tearing" on early models documentation-0466959690101054-van-canning_005.jpgFrame "tearing" on early models documentation-0466959690101054-van-canning_002.jpg
    - BMW V10 M5 Daily
    - Way too many more to list

  2. Remove Advertisements
    Audi R8 Forum
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    Elk Park NC
    Posts
    49

    Re: Frame "tearing" on early models documentation

    Looks like very nice work to me. I think about doing this as preventative work all the time. I worry because some say it will weaken the surrounding metal. Did your shop comment on that? Are you on the West Coast? If you don't mind could you share what it cost to have the work done.

  4. #3
    Senior Member ezmaass's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    CT, USA
    Posts
    3,856

    Re: Frame "tearing" on early models documentation

    Quote Originally Posted by mwarner View Post
    Looks like very nice work to me. I think about doing this as preventative work all the time. I worry because some say it will weaken the surrounding metal. Did your shop comment on that? Are you on the West Coast? If you don't mind could you share what it cost to have the work done.
    And therein lies the debate.

    It's important to note that Audi won't stand behind installing these. There's been a lot of speculation that it's likely due to risk of weakening the frame, as it's notoriously difficult to weld aluminum this way. This is also part of the reason why it's difficult to get the parts from Audi as a consumer.

    I know we've talked about frame cracking on this site for years, but in my time here I don't think I've heard of more than a handful of actual incidents. So, it's a very rare thing indeed. It's probably worth considering if you look to proactively reinforce the frame - done improperly (and only Audi can say what "improper" is, and they're not saying much), you *may* be introducing problems rather than solving them. The fact that Audi won't stand behind a shop doing this work is a bit concerning, because it also means they're not sharing potentially critical information such as the alloy mix, which would help inform a welder on their approach.

    Personally, I couldn't say whether I'd do it or not (I'm thankful I don't need to make the decision), but I DO know I'd probably do a lot of research on it, including a good deal of time talking to the potential welders before pulling the trigger. I'd want to avoid odds of impairing the car outweighing odds of proactively addressing a problem. Again, given that this is a very rare situation, it means I'd need to have a super high level of confidence in the former.

    All of that being said, it looks like the welder here did a nice, clean job. I'm not a welder or metallurgist, so I can only comment on the visual aspects of the job!
    2015 Audi R8 V10 | S-Tronic | Brilliant Red on Black | Carbon Blades | Carbon Trim | Sport Exhaust | Full Leather | Contrast Stitching | OEM 5-Piece R8 Luggage | Full XPEL Ultimate | Fully Stock | Original Owner

    -- Other Vehicles --
    2017 BMW 650xi Gran Coupe
    2012 Audi Q5


    Hidden Content

  5. Remove Advertisements
    Audi R8 Forum
    Advertisements
     

  6. #4
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Posts
    19

    Re: Frame "tearing" on early models documentation

    Quote Originally Posted by mwarner View Post
    Looks like very nice work to me. I think about doing this as preventative work all the time. I worry because some say it will weaken the surrounding metal. Did your shop comment on that? Are you on the West Coast? If you don't mind could you share what it cost to have the work done.
    I am. I live in Malibu.
    The shop I used was Paulee's Auto Body. It's between Beverly hills and Century city.
    They said it would be stronger than it was before rather than causing more of an issue. And to me it makes sense... weld in reinforcement that Audi did from factory after late 09....
    No difference in what the shops doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by ezmaass View Post
    And therein lies the debate.

    It's important to note that Audi won't stand behind installing these. There's been a lot of speculation that it's likely due to risk of weakening the frame, as it's notoriously difficult to weld aluminum this way. This is also part of the reason why it's difficult to get the parts from Audi as a consumer.

    I know we've talked about frame cracking on this site for years, but in my time here I don't think I've heard of more than a handful of actual incidents. So, it's a very rare thing indeed. It's probably worth considering if you look to proactively reinforce the frame - done improperly (and only Audi can say what "improper" is, and they're not saying much), you *may* be introducing problems rather than solving them. The fact that Audi won't stand behind a shop doing this work is a bit concerning, because it also means they're not sharing potentially critical information such as the alloy mix, which would help inform a welder on their approach.

    Personally, I couldn't say whether I'd do it or not (I'm thankful I don't need to make the decision), but I DO know I'd probably do a lot of research on it, including a good deal of time talking to the potential welders before pulling the trigger. I'd want to avoid odds of impairing the car outweighing odds of proactively addressing a problem. Again, given that this is a very rare situation, it means I'd need to have a super high level of confidence in the former.

    All of that being said, it looks like the welder here did a nice, clean job. I'm not a welder or metallurgist, so I can only comment on the visual aspects of the job!


    Not sure if I got lucky or what. But.. I had the work done by a shop AUDI sent me to. And the car went back to Audi for proper body alignment. And Audi supplied the reinforcement plates.
    Last edited by MalibuMafiaV; 08-06-2019 at 02:23 PM.
    - BMW V10 M5 Daily
    - Way too many more to list

  7. #5
    Senior Member ezmaass's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    CT, USA
    Posts
    3,856

    Re: Frame "tearing" on early models documentation

    Quote Originally Posted by MalibuMafiaV View Post
    Not sure if I got lucky or what. But.. I had the work done by a shop AUDI sent me to. And the car went back to Audi for proper body alignment. And Audi supplied the reinforcement plates.
    Interesting - that definitely differs from the experiences of many members here. Perhaps your local dealership was helping you out... or maybe Audi's policy towards applying these has changed. It would be some good data points to hear from others who are inquiring with their dealership and/or Audi corporate about it.
    2015 Audi R8 V10 | S-Tronic | Brilliant Red on Black | Carbon Blades | Carbon Trim | Sport Exhaust | Full Leather | Contrast Stitching | OEM 5-Piece R8 Luggage | Full XPEL Ultimate | Fully Stock | Original Owner

    -- Other Vehicles --
    2017 BMW 650xi Gran Coupe
    2012 Audi Q5


    Hidden Content

  8. #6
    Member rafalboston's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Scottsdale, AZ
    Posts
    58

    Re: Frame "tearing" on early models documentation

    oh wow fellow OG L4P'er

    I just had coilovers installed and had the shop inspect my frame and it's looking like new at 32k miles.

  9. #7
    Senior Member CraigFulton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Clearwater, FL
    Posts
    420
    Quote Originally Posted by mwarner View Post
    Looks like very nice work to me. I think about doing this as preventative work all the time. I worry because some say it will weaken the surrounding metal. Did your shop comment on that? Are you on the West Coast? If you don't mind could you share what it cost to have the work done.
    Weaken the surrounding metal? Hahaha. That would mean the entire frame is weak right out of the factory. That is just people talking that have nothing better to do.

  10. #8
    Senior Member ezmaass's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    CT, USA
    Posts
    3,856

    Re: Frame "tearing" on early models documentation

    Quote Originally Posted by CraigFulton View Post
    Weaken the surrounding metal? Hahaha. That would mean the entire frame is weak right out of the factory. That is just people talking that have nothing better to do.
    I wouldn't discount it so quickly. I'm not a welder, but from the little I've read, it's not a simple process to weld aluminum correctly. It differs considerably from welding steel. A large part of doing it successfully seems to come down to understanding the chemistry of the alloys, and one aluminum isn't necessarily the same as the next. The process used by the welder really needs to be informed by the alloy "fillers" that are incorporated into that particular aluminum, not to mention whether heat treatment has been done. I recall the forum having this discussion a few times, and part of the missing ingredient here is that Audi isn't sharing (or hasn't in the past) this information. From Howie's thread on this (quite a long time ago), I seem to recall we couldn't locate any markings or information on the braces, themselves, and we certainly don't have any aluminum prep insights from the factory for the frame.

    Can you weaken the area you're actually trying to reinforce? Again, I'm not a welder, but the info I've read suggests it's a real risk.

    Some info on aluminum vs. steel welding and the risks, including tensile strength:

    https://www.thefabricator.com/articl...-steel-welding

    Some discussion around welding T6 aluminum and the ability to cut tensile strength as a result:

    https://weldingweb.com/showthread.ph...-Strength-Loss

    Some more discussion around aluminum car frame welding - plenty of comments around risking tensile strength:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/AskEngineer...hey_be_welded/

    What I've taken away from much of what I've read is that:

    (a) Aluminum welding is much, much harder to do properly than steel.

    (b) If the welder doesn't have specific information on the alloy chemistry, it's impossible to choose the correct "filler" materials for that aluminum.

    (c) If the aluminum was heat treated (part of getting something like T6 designation), it will lose a significant portion of its tensile strength if welded after the fact. The only way to recover this afterwards appears to be re-heat-treating the metal.

    Given how much forum owners love their R8s, I think the natural inclination would be to go reinforce the frames with these plates. But as I said above, historically Audi doesn't seem to have sanctioned shops doing this. Why? Maybe that policy has changed? It would be interesting to get some data points from folks making local inquiries. There was a forum member (in Michigan?) who recently had a number of shops turn him away for this job, as well, citing lack of support from Audi. I guess all I'm saying is that it appears more info/research might be warranted here.
    2015 Audi R8 V10 | S-Tronic | Brilliant Red on Black | Carbon Blades | Carbon Trim | Sport Exhaust | Full Leather | Contrast Stitching | OEM 5-Piece R8 Luggage | Full XPEL Ultimate | Fully Stock | Original Owner

    -- Other Vehicles --
    2017 BMW 650xi Gran Coupe
    2012 Audi Q5


    Hidden Content

  11. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    Elk Park NC
    Posts
    49

    Re: Frame "tearing" on early models documentation

    Malibu Mafia did they remove the dashboard prior to welding?

  12. #10
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Posts
    19

    Re: Frame "tearing" on early models documentation

    Quote Originally Posted by ezmaass View Post
    Interesting - that definitely differs from the experiences of many members here. Perhaps your local dealership was helping you out... or maybe Audi's policy towards applying these has changed. It would be some good data points to hear from others who are inquiring with their dealership and/or Audi corporate about it.
    Audi Beverly Hills is who I went to.
    And it also went first to Audi Wilsonville in Oregon. Which then referred me to Bev Hills when I took the car down here.
    I will say Audi Wilsonville is very helpful and I've never had an issue with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by rafalboston View Post
    oh wow fellow OG L4P'er

    I just had coilovers installed and had the shop inspect my frame and it's looking like new at 32k miles.
    Hey hey! OG L4Per for sure! haha. I did my "repairs" at 39k miles. So you're probably fine. I was just being super careful about it. Mines a late model 09 as well which from my understanding is less known to have the issue?
    I just wanted to be sure though.

    Quote Originally Posted by mwarner View Post
    Malibu Mafia did they remove the dashboard prior to welding?
    That's actually a good question.... I should ask them about that.
    - BMW V10 M5 Daily
    - Way too many more to list

  13. Remove Advertisements
    Audi R8 Forum
    Advertisements
     

Page 1 of 5 1234 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v4.3.0