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Discussion Starter #1
Hi !

So bought an R8 a month back 21000 miles, V8 rtronic - looking in great condition seemed fine to drive, took it to Audi garage as noticed excessive vibrations at low RPM after couple weeks of driving. Initially, they thought engine mounts so we agreed to the work... since getting the engine out turns out it wasn't even an R8 engine, it was an S5. They are now telling me they can't fix the issues.

I am going legal with this, but wondering if anyone had any kind of comment or just some sympathy to offer...

What do you think my chances are of getting a resolution to this? The advert didnt indicate anything at all of this nature...
 

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If it was a private sale then, unless he made a misrepresentation which you can prove, you are unlikely to get anywhere through legal channels. Buyer beware I’m afraid.
 

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Sold through Autotrader, recovering the advert as we speak... no mention at all of changed engine or anything like that... said was in "great condition and collectors item"
 

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Sold through Autotrader, recovering the advert as we speak... no mention at all of changed engine or anything like that... said was in "great condition and collectors item"
If it was a private sale then, unless he made a misrepresentation which you can prove, you are unlikely to get anywhere through legal channels. Buyer beware I’m afraid.
Sold through Autotrader, recovering the advert as we speak... no mention at all of changed engine or anything like that... said was in "great condition and collectors item"
Also I have a receipt that we have both signed, again no mention at all.....
 

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I’m sorry, but he doesn’t have to disclose anything. He just can’t say anything that isn’t true. Of course, hemay not even know, it may have been a previous owner who did it. When you find the advert we can take a look...
 

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Very sorry to hear this but as has already been said, you have no recourse with a private sale unless false claims were made.
 

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You are not going to get any where with the legal route.
Is that really how it works? I know it is the buyer's responsibility to have the car checked. And pretty much all sales are "as is". But isn't there any exclusions in the law that says "you cannot call an Honda and Lambo"?

Let me ask in another way; what makes a used car an R8? If there are no restrictions, can the seller say "this is an R8" without saying "well, I've changed the engine and the transmission and all the components in the drive train, and the pumps, and control units, and wires from that of a Honda"

I know it sounds stupid but is there a line that can be drawn?
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Very sorry to hear this but as has already been said, you have no recourse with a private sale unless false claims were made.
Thanks - I will find the advert, I am sure it says it is in excellent condition, low millage and other stuff - all positive. The my legal guy is calling me tomorrow, sent him the receipt and everything we will see.
 

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Is that really how it works? I know it is the buyer's responsibility to have the car checked. And pretty much all sales are "as is". But isn't there any exclusions in the law that says "you cannot call an Honda and Lambo"?

Let me ask in another way; what makes a used car an R8? If there are no restrictions, can the seller say "this is an R8" without saying "well, I've changed the engine and the transmission and all the components in the drive train, and the pumps, and control units, and wires from that of a Honda"

I know it sounds stupid but is there a line that can be drawn?
I must admit I am thinking this is crazy, whats to stop me selling it on again? Of course I wouldnt, morally its terrible and I am sure there will be repercussions to me if I did so.
 

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What identified it as an S5 engine? They use the same block so if he just bought a S5 short block to replace a blown engine, that shouldn't be an issue. Frankly, I don't see how he could put anything other than a short block in a R8.
 

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As others have said, as long as he did not misrepresent the car, I am not sure you have any options. Your analogy about calling a honda a lambo, does not work.

To illustrate, say the guy puts and exhaust on the car, or changes the wheels....is it still an R8? Not much different with swapping an engine.
 

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Call Ray Donovan. He can help. Sorry to hear and thanks for sharing this so we all can learn and be better prepared in the future.
 

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Sorry to hear about this.

When you say it's an "S5" engine, I suppose we need a bit more information. There's everything from using parts (like a block) to literally swapping in a full S5 engine with ECUs, accessories, etc.

As far as the statements on misrepresentation, I think I'd start with the elephant in the room - calling it an R8. At some point a car REASONABLY ceases to be considered the same model once it's modified far beyond factory specifications. Swapping the engine for an engine of another vehicle may very well be crossing that line. Can I sell a Bugatti Chiron with a Toyota Prius powertrain and still represent it as a Bugatti Chiron? Can I sell it, and so long as I never say it was swapped, and the buyer never asks, I get away with it? I find that hard to believe. You're materially changing what makes the vehicle what it is - the engine is not an accessory or a secondary system of some sort, like an exhaust or radio... it very much defines the vehicle, especially when you're talking about a sports car. It's a material detail of what makes the car the car. Not only does it define things like the car's performance, but it also happens to be the single most expensive component.

And why stop at cars? Why not swap the internals of phones, computers, stereos, etc with much cheaper replacement parts and sell them off as the models written on the outside of the device? Not fraud? I have to believe it is.

While I'm not a lawyer, I'd expect this probably fits the definition of "fraud by omission." The seller may swap the engine, but if they choose to omit that fact (a "material fact") when selling it, that's a problem. Representing the car as an "R8" would lead any buyer to "reasonably" assume it's fitted with an R8 engine. The engine type is a very material detail of the model's specification, unlike, again, a radio or exhaust. The fact that it's not fitted with an R8 engine, and the fact that it wasn't disclosed, would lead me to conclude it's a good candidate for fraud by omission. The fact that this omission has now also caused you harm (e.g. the car is not worth what you paid; the car cannot be repaired by Audi; etc.) is probably also another good indicator of a case there - typically showing harm is an integral element of any claim.

Did the seller know? Well, it may not even matter. From the little research I did, fraud by omission doesn't necessarily require the seller to have committed that fraud intentionally.

I'd pursue it. Good luck and keep us posted.
 

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As others have said, as long as he did not misrepresent the car, I am not sure you have any options. Your analogy about calling a honda a lambo, does not work.

To illustrate, say the guy puts and exhaust on the car, or changes the wheels....is it still an R8? Not much different with swapping an engine.
I think you hit the nail. Where do you draw the line? When does a car stop being one and become another.

A few months back, a vendor was talking about a 6-speed GT. Yes, they’ve used two GTs as donor cars to make a regular R8 6-speed manual GT. All the parts (except chassis I believe) were from those donor cars.

If getting parts from different cars does not make a car something else, that 6-speed GT is not a GT...
 

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Hi !

So bought an R8 a month back 21000 miles, V8 rtronic - looking in great condition seemed fine to drive, took it to Audi garage as noticed excessive vibrations at low RPM after couple weeks of driving. Initially, they thought engine mounts so we agreed to the work... since getting the engine out turns out it wasn't even an R8 engine, it was an S5. They are now telling me they can't fix the issues.

I am going legal with this, but wondering if anyone had any kind of comment or just some sympathy to offer...

What do you think my chances are of getting a resolution to this? The advert didnt indicate anything at all of this nature...
WOW - seems to me on the face of it, this swap is much harder to do than fix the original engine. The ECU programming (and instrument/immobilizer coding) are a major thing - I just can't imagine it worth it. But as EZMAASS notes, there IS something way wrong with this deal. If as others note, fraud by omission does not exist in case law in the UK, perhaps this is still an opportunity to make it so. Find a good, entrepreneurial attorney to champion this...
 
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