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Bought an Audi R8 from Private Seller - Turns out an S5 Engine in There............ OMG

16K views 95 replies 32 participants last post by  CharlieNJ 
#1 ·
Hi !

So bought an R8 a month back 21000 miles, V8 rtronic - looking in great condition seemed fine to drive, took it to Audi garage as noticed excessive vibrations at low RPM after couple weeks of driving. Initially, they thought engine mounts so we agreed to the work... since getting the engine out turns out it wasn't even an R8 engine, it was an S5. They are now telling me they can't fix the issues.

I am going legal with this, but wondering if anyone had any kind of comment or just some sympathy to offer...

What do you think my chances are of getting a resolution to this? The advert didnt indicate anything at all of this nature...
 
#9 ·
You are not going to get any where with the legal route.
Is that really how it works? I know it is the buyer's responsibility to have the car checked. And pretty much all sales are "as is". But isn't there any exclusions in the law that says "you cannot call an Honda and Lambo"?

Let me ask in another way; what makes a used car an R8? If there are no restrictions, can the seller say "this is an R8" without saying "well, I've changed the engine and the transmission and all the components in the drive train, and the pumps, and control units, and wires from that of a Honda"

I know it sounds stupid but is there a line that can be drawn?
 
#23 ·
The advert

YEAR 2008
MILEAGE 20000
Publication AT
TRADEFLAG Private
ADTEXT Great condition inside and out, Full Audi Service History, like new, collectors item as it has a very low mileage. 1 Year MOT, Just been serviced by Audi, R8 private plate is included in sale! Very well maintained and cared for., Full service history, Electric windows, Air conditioning, Satellite navigation, Parking aid, DVD, Bluetooth, Leather trim, Heated seats, Sports seats, Cruise control, Driver's airbags, Side airbags, Passenger airbags. Black
WRITEOFF_CATEGORY N
ATTENTION_GRABBER Full Audi Service History
SERVICE_HISTORY Full service history
 
#8 ·
Very sorry to hear this but as has already been said, you have no recourse with a private sale unless false claims were made.
 
#14 ·
As others have said, as long as he did not misrepresent the car, I am not sure you have any options. Your analogy about calling a honda a lambo, does not work.

To illustrate, say the guy puts and exhaust on the car, or changes the wheels....is it still an R8? Not much different with swapping an engine.
 
#17 ·
I think you hit the nail. Where do you draw the line? When does a car stop being one and become another.

A few months back, a vendor was talking about a 6-speed GT. Yes, they’ve used two GTs as donor cars to make a regular R8 6-speed manual GT. All the parts (except chassis I believe) were from those donor cars.

If getting parts from different cars does not make a car something else, that 6-speed GT is not a GT...
 
#16 ·
Sorry to hear about this.

When you say it's an "S5" engine, I suppose we need a bit more information. There's everything from using parts (like a block) to literally swapping in a full S5 engine with ECUs, accessories, etc.

As far as the statements on misrepresentation, I think I'd start with the elephant in the room - calling it an R8. At some point a car REASONABLY ceases to be considered the same model once it's modified far beyond factory specifications. Swapping the engine for an engine of another vehicle may very well be crossing that line. Can I sell a Bugatti Chiron with a Toyota Prius powertrain and still represent it as a Bugatti Chiron? Can I sell it, and so long as I never say it was swapped, and the buyer never asks, I get away with it? I find that hard to believe. You're materially changing what makes the vehicle what it is - the engine is not an accessory or a secondary system of some sort, like an exhaust or radio... it very much defines the vehicle, especially when you're talking about a sports car. It's a material detail of what makes the car the car. Not only does it define things like the car's performance, but it also happens to be the single most expensive component.

And why stop at cars? Why not swap the internals of phones, computers, stereos, etc with much cheaper replacement parts and sell them off as the models written on the outside of the device? Not fraud? I have to believe it is.

While I'm not a lawyer, I'd expect this probably fits the definition of "fraud by omission." The seller may swap the engine, but if they choose to omit that fact (a "material fact") when selling it, that's a problem. Representing the car as an "R8" would lead any buyer to "reasonably" assume it's fitted with an R8 engine. The engine type is a very material detail of the model's specification, unlike, again, a radio or exhaust. The fact that it's not fitted with an R8 engine, and the fact that it wasn't disclosed, would lead me to conclude it's a good candidate for fraud by omission. The fact that this omission has now also caused you harm (e.g. the car is not worth what you paid; the car cannot be repaired by Audi; etc.) is probably also another good indicator of a case there - typically showing harm is an integral element of any claim.

Did the seller know? Well, it may not even matter. From the little research I did, fraud by omission doesn't necessarily require the seller to have committed that fraud intentionally.

I'd pursue it. Good luck and keep us posted.
 
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#24 ·
Thank you so much, great response. Yes I have taken it further with a solicitor I use for my business, they are confident, given the advert, the receipt that I have a claim. I have offered the seller via email (I know his address as he lives locally) the chance to buy back the vehicle and pay the costs associated with fixing the car, or we escalate to court proceedings, he will of course be liable to the whole proceedings costs if he was to loose.

Fingers crossed, emotionally this has been awful. I appreciate the buyers beware comments but even and Audi master technician couldnt tell this wasnt the right engine until he lifter the entire thing out of the car and checked the code.
 
#20 ·
Hi !

So bought an R8 a month back 21000 miles, V8 rtronic - looking in great condition seemed fine to drive, took it to Audi garage as noticed excessive vibrations at low RPM after couple weeks of driving. Initially, they thought engine mounts so we agreed to the work... since getting the engine out turns out it wasn't even an R8 engine, it was an S5. They are now telling me they can't fix the issues.

I am going legal with this, but wondering if anyone had any kind of comment or just some sympathy to offer...

What do you think my chances are of getting a resolution to this? The advert didnt indicate anything at all of this nature...
WOW - seems to me on the face of it, this swap is much harder to do than fix the original engine. The ECU programming (and instrument/immobilizer coding) are a major thing - I just can't imagine it worth it. But as EZMAASS notes, there IS something way wrong with this deal. If as others note, fraud by omission does not exist in case law in the UK, perhaps this is still an opportunity to make it so. Find a good, entrepreneurial attorney to champion this...
 
#25 ·
That's crazy. It's an awful lot of trouble to put in the wrong engine and do all of the other work. Did you try to verify all of the claims about being Audi Serviced, blah, blah. Did anyone check the car for you or drive it before purchase? We all want to trust people and believe what we are being told, but unfortunately, you can never trust anyone when it comes to buying a car. Sorry for your problems, hopefully threatening to sue may yield some results. In most cases, with any private sale, "as-is" is the coverall. But hopefully the threats will scare them into refuding your money. Good Luck.
 
#26 ·
Hi thanks for your response I had a friend with me to test drive the car, drove it twice but we both assumed it felt great as big engine we just assume the vibrations were pretty normal. Only after taking to garag to get it all checked out for peace of mind, did this journey start.

Appreciate the comments - thank you
 
#27 ·
Was the Cat N something entirely separate and not connected to an engine replacement?
 
#28 ·
As others have said, I suspect it will be a case of Caveat Emptor (let the buyer beware)

I mean, I bought my V8 a few months ago privately and the A/C failed within a week, which could be a huge job! Need to check it out over the winter. Its the luck of the draw buying privately.

How have they identified exactly that the block is from an S5?

Cheers

Chris
 
#31 ·
If they changed everything over from the S5 V8 you're also short on horsepower!

Audi
Model S5
Generation S5 Coupe (8T)
Modification (Engine) 4.2 FSI V8 (354Hp) quattro
Start of production 2007 year
End of production 2011 year
 
#34 ·
It sucks in your situation but it was a used car sold as is , plus it has been like a month since you bought it . even you take this court ,you will never win the case . Previous owner can say that you blew up the original engine and replaced it with S5 since it has been a month after he sold you the car . Find a local shop that works on German cars , they will be much more helpful then the Audi dealer
 
#36 ·
This is a really odd situation. The US and UK laws are quite different, but if he wrote 'complete service history' and it didn't include an engine swap (!), that would be fraud here. Also, in the US it depends on the State, but an engine swap would make you fail inspection, which is our equivalent of MOT. So saying 'great condition' would be fraud too. Even if the actual contract says "As is." I think most likely your garage is misidentifying the block. A swap is a crazy amount of labor, why would someone put in the wrong engine and completely destroy the value of the car?
 
#37 ·
It was advertised as CAT N. Category N which in this country means ....


Category N — Cat N, for short — is a description used by insurance companies to describe the level of damage to a vehicle they have written off. ... The insurance company that handled the claim decided that repairing the vehicle would have cost more than replacing it. Insurers often sell Cat N vehicles on for salvage.

So, I feel really sorry for the OP but if you buy a CAT N then you do major major homework to find out the history. Not just driving it to see how it seems .A PPI for a straight ordinary car is essential. A pre purchase inspection on a Category N (insurance right off car) is an absolute must to find out A) why it was Category N insurance right off (uneconomical to fix for the insurance company so they sold it for salvage) and B) see any proof that it was documented that it was fixed to a professional degree.

The original advert states it was CAT N which normally means a very large discount (bargain) when coming to resale value. However, many insurance companies won't insure a CAT N car unless it has a lot of paperwork showing that it has been subsequently professionally fixed.

It's a very unfortunate situation for the buyer and he has my sympathy.

If I were him I would be looking at how long ago it was declared an insurance write-off. It's an 11 year old car, It might have been written-off many years ago and repaired. The last owner might (might) be unaware of what was actually fixed. It might not have been written off and repaired during the last owners 'ownership'.



It is illegal not to declare that it was a Category N car but the seller did declare that in the advert. Alarm bells should have been ringing from the advert. I say again, I feel very sorry for the owner and this forum will give them a lot of support in their quest to sort it out.



It's a sad start to R8 ownership for the OP and I'm sure many are reading this thread with sympathy. I hope it is sorted quickly for him.
 
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#38 ·
I particularly like the "like new" reference in the advertisement. Well, if it was "like new" it would certainly come with the correct engine for the vehicle. :)

Now seeing the advertisement, however, including the insight about "Category N" meaning in the UK, I do think there's more of an uphill battle than I had originally thought. Nonetheless, I'm surprised at the number of people on here who would simply "suck it up" if they were sold an expensive car and it literally came with the wrong engine! Barring the Category N thing here, which could change things substantially, I'd say this would be a clear case of fraud - "like new" and no mention of an engine swap (fraud by omission here in the US), I'd be chasing them down.

Will be following with interest!
 
#39 ·
Now seeing the advertisement, however, including the insight about "Category N" meaning in the UK, I do think there's more of an uphill battle than I had originally thought.
Likewise. In the US, buying a 'rebuilt title' salvage car means all bets are off. I can understand the allure to get these cars cheap. For most "normal" cars a salvage title will knock 50% off the value of the vehicle. But for 'exotics' it only seems to take about 30% off. (which is still a large number...but the risk...oh boy).

I love the write-ups on the ones I see for sale. "Limited damage" is a popular term.

Not to be mean....but anyone buying an insurance write off should be going in knowing all bets are off....AND be saving a TON of money in the process or it is just not worth it. Given the costs of repairs on these cars, I am not sure if 30% off the retail price is worth it.
 
#45 ·
Advertisement says "Full Audi Service History."

...you don't say? ? ? ?
 
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