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Hi, I'm hoping to get some help in acquiring a set (or 2 sets if available) of Audi R8 front end aluminum frame reinforcement brackets (Audi part numbers: 427805884 & 427805883). I am hoping that there may still be a set or 2 floating around amongst r8talk members from the group purchase discussed in this forum. I would be most appreciative if anybody could help me as I really need to address this issue with my car urgently.
I look forward to hearing back from you. Thank you Shane William Short Melbourne Australia
 

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Hi, I'm hoping to get some help in acquiring a set (or 2 sets if available) of Audi R8 front end aluminum frame reinforcement brackets (Audi part numbers: 427805884 & 427805883). I am hoping that there may still be a set or 2 floating around amongst r8talk members from the group purchase discussed in this forum. I would be most appreciative if anybody could help me as I really need to address this issue with my car urgently.
I look forward to hearing back from you. Thank you Shane William Short Melbourne Australia
I have a set of these from the group buy. If you still need them – and can wait for delivery from the UK! – let me know...
 

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I ordered a set from the UK Ebay site and received them stateside in 4 days. You can't buy these in America and I have always wanted a set to have just in case. There is so much controversy about installing them and since my frame looks fine I will just keep them for piece of mind in case I find an incredible aluminum welder one day.
 

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I got my masters in metallurgical engineering (with a focus on welding) and my doctorate in welding engineering (with a focus on metallurgy). There are a couple technical experts on this thread that have made excellent points, some other people on this thread have made some good metallurgical insights based probably only on Google searches ... but most people are pretty wildly off the mark with superfluous info they Googled.

I've offered my thoughts on here several times regarding the issue of potential strength loss from welding, and the likelihood of how the car was originally fabricated and how that should inform our risk of performing this preventative maintenance. I mostly get talked over ... but I'm old enough to understand: that's life.

For what it's worth, if I could find an Audi certified aluminum repair shop that would do it for a reasonable price, I would in a heartbeat.
 

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Hi gallag, Thanks for your insight. Here's a video of how the R8 is made and the Audi engineer explaining how the aluminium space frame is welded together.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5or9wDriCU

The aluminium space frame appear to be casted and extruded parts. (Video 2:00). Can you tell from the video if these aluminium frames on the jigs are heat treated before welding or "cold welded" and non treated?

From your post, you do not appear to be worried about the potential strength loss from welding. Are you saying this is a non issue even if the reinforcement plates are welded on without heat treating the frame?

We would appreciate your metallurgical engineering knowledge here. Cheers.


I got my masters in metallurgical engineering (with a focus on welding) and my doctorate in welding engineering (with a focus on metallurgy). There are a couple technical experts on this thread that have made excellent points, some other people on this thread have made some good metallurgical insights based probably only on Google searches ... but most people are pretty wildly off the mark with superfluous info they Googled.

I've offered my thoughts on here several times regarding the issue of potential strength loss from welding, and the likelihood of how the car was originally fabricated and how that should inform our risk of performing this preventative maintenance. I mostly get talked over ... but I'm old enough to understand: that's life.

For what it's worth, if I could find an Audi certified aluminum repair shop that would do it for a reasonable price, I would in a heartbeat.
 

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Howie,

The jist of the issue, in my opinion, is whether or not we believe that the entire space frame is furnace heat treated after all of the welding we saw in the video*. I've seen nothing to indicate that it is, and think that it would be impractical to do so. If the frame is not furnace heat treated after welding, then (a) the frame is constructed of an alloy/temper that doesn't soften with welding, or (b) softening does occur, but Audi has accounted for this in designing all these weld joints. With respect to the latter scenario, there are a lot of examples in industry where the weld-metal or HAZ are softer than a base-metal in a hard-temper, but the weld-joint is mechanically designed to account for this.

Whether it's scenario (a) or (b), if the manual welds made by the Audi factory have acceptable strength levels, then welds made by any other competent aluminum welder will also be acceptable in strength. If this weren't the case, Audi would never, ever, ever sell those brackets, even to their own certified aluminum repair centers ... and I've gotten two quotes from Audi over the last year for this work.

*This argument assumes that the space frame is made out of a 6XXX series heat-treatable alloy, as indicated in one of the pictures showing the bracket is stamped with AlMgSi. Since Audi isn't forthcoming with this information, then the way to figure out what alloy and temper the space frame (and welds) are made out of is:

1. Get the chemistry of the frame and welds from an XRF gun. This technique is completely non-destructive, and we all probably know someone who works at a company that has one.
2. Get the hardness of of the frame and a weld with a MIC10 type hardness tester, which is again completely non-destructive, and we probably know someone who works at a company that has one.

You can more or less piece together what materials you're working with with these two pieces of information.
 

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gallag4 - this is very informative and whilst I have virtually no knowledge of the subject area, I am nonetheless very appreciative of you taking the time to impart your considerable know how.
 

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Thanks very much for your detailed explanation Gallag!

Anyone here with access to a XRF gun or MIC10 type hardness tester to confirm the type of aluminium used in the Audi space frame?
 

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Just ordered a set from UK eBay seller.

We’ll see if I can get this done next spring when I have the car apart for the build. Maybe by then we’ll have a consensus weld vs epoxy, and if weld is the answer, maybe we can have more knowledge about the chemistry by then.

Regardless, I’m going to try to have it done.
Mine is a 2009 produced, 2010 MY V10.
I’ve hit a pot hole before and it scared me to death knowing this could be an issue.

I want the car to be reinforced and safe.
 

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People have been epoxying the E46 M3 rear subframe reinforcements for years. It’s a proven process. I don’t see why it wouldn’t apply here as well.
 

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I'd be interested in opinions or experiences regarding using an epoxy weld. In particular, '3M Scotch weld EC2216Epoxy Adhesive. If used with the proper applicator, 'Scotch Weld EPX Plus II'.
This adhesive has been tested and certified for aircraft and aerospace application for many years. Thoughts?
 

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I'd be interested in opinions or experiences regarding using an epoxy weld. In particular, '3M Scotch weld EC2216Epoxy Adhesive. If used with the proper applicator, 'Scotch Weld EPX Plus II'.
This adhesive has been tested and certified for aircraft and aerospace application for many years. Thoughts?
Gallag4, could you comment on this? I might have to touch base with some old Airforce airframe techs on this type vice aluminum welding as a preventative measure.
 

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I thought I would share a couple of photos of the frame reinforcement I've just had done. Ricky did the job using aeroespace grade epoxy which was the method I wanted in favour of welding. Whether or not this approach is any better or worse than welding, I have no idea of, but at the very least it has to be preferable to not having them at all.

4.jpg
6.jpg
 

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I thought I would share a couple of photos of the frame reinforcement I've just had done. Ricky did the job using aeroespace grade epoxy which was the method I wanted in favour of welding. Whether or not this approach is any better or worse than welding, I have no idea of, but at the very least it has to be preferable to not having them at all.

View attachment 246147 View attachment 246148
Great photos Trev and I have to agree with you.
 

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Glad to see you've done this reinforcement Trev. Ricky did a very clean job. Which aerospace grade epoxy did you use?
 

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Thanks Howie. It was CTA 2105 two part epoxy. Dave actually recommended the company to me.
 

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Thanks Howie. It was CTA 2105 two part epoxy. Dave actually recommended the company to me.
Just to remind you, mine was first bonded and then welded, as my welder said he could do it without a lot of heat penetration into the epoxy that is in the area that cracks.
 
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