[JuddS]

88k!!! You got me by about 30k but I'm shooting to catch you. I don't know much about this topic but when I look at your photo the whole interior stuff all seems to be quite rusted. Looks to me like a car thats done some hard time outdoors and not a problem with the disks.

 

[speedrs4]

Hi

Steel will rust and zinc spray on exposed surfaces will prevent rust.
This only works if the disc is new and clean before coating.


Tom

 

[CharlieNJ]

The center hub is still rusty!

 

[extrablack]

Hi

Steel will rust and zinc spray on exposed surfaces will prevent rust.
This only works if the disc is new and clean before coating.


Tom

too late for that now, I guess I’ll do it on my next set of rotors

 

[dinkman]

OP, good on you for owning and driving 88k miles

yea seriously thats awesome!

 

[IndyRon]

I was going to say zinc washed rotor option on my stoptech's on another car prevented the rust on non-swept areas of the rotor. Also, I think that rust being slung isn't from the pad surface, its the rusted areas in between the rotors swept surfaces, where the veins are. If the car sits out overnight, condensation and rust is forming in that area and getting slung off when you drive it next in the AM.

 

[Malar1898]

Appreciate them, could be worse, you could have CCB.

 

[Ape Factory]

Just a reminder we do have our next gen carbon ceramic rotors as both an upgrade for the iron rotor setup (no rust!) and as a CCB replacement set. These are not your grandfather's carbon ceramic rotors, chopped carbon slapped in a mold, but continuous fiber reinforced ceramic with carbon molecules that organically align during the manufacturing process. Three times the hardness, three times the thermal conductivity. And they can be refurbished twice in their lifetime (affordably!).

They also handle elevated track temperatures with no problem and are now being used in a professional race series, three support classes. There are multiple brake pads available to fit your driving/braking style.

And they're LIGHT. Serious unsprung and rotating mass removal. Being a premium performance product, they're not inexpensive but are less so than the inferior OEM discs. Girodiscs are lead weights in comparison, especially if you "upgrade to the larger front diameter discs. They're around 40 pound each!







Here's the first iron rotor replacement set. They're upgraded to a 380x34mm disc and we supply spacers and bolts to move the caliper out radially. The rears are the same size on both sets (OEM sized).

 

[extrablack]

Those are awesome but also probably very expensive.

 

[Ape Factory]

Those are awesome but also probably very expensive.

They absolutely are a premium product and a very, very high caliber, trick component. With that said, if you add up the costs of rotor replacement over the years, and assuming the R8 is driven regularly like yours is, you'll likely break even from a cost standpoint. You'll be far ahead in performance for all those miles though!

 

[Scott-AhlmanPerformance]

And they're LIGHT. Serious unsprung and rotating mass removal. Being a premium performance product, they're not inexpensive but are less so than the inferior OEM discs. Girodiscs are lead weights in comparison, especially if you "upgrade to the larger front diameter discs. They're around 40 pound each!

LOL that's a 38% exaggeration there salesman regarding Girodisc upgraded rotor weight. The Girodisc 2-piece upgraded aluminum hat slotted rotors are 380 mm x 34 mm and weigh 25 pounds.

And I know you guys like to ignore pedal feel and threshold braking, but it matters...a lot.

Durability - the ceramic rotors, even ST's, do not like off road excursions, which is why the guys who run the track come to us for Girodiscs...along with pedal feel and threshold braking.

 

[Scott-AhlmanPerformance]

They absolutely are a premium product and a very, very high caliber, trick component. With that said, if you add up the costs of rotor replacement over the years, and assuming the R8 is driven regularly like yours is, you'll likely break even from a cost standpoint. You'll be far ahead in performance for all those miles though!

Perhaps with OE rotors (though they will be warped well before thickness issues). But not a chance versus the Girodiscs. How many continuous miles of road and track on the ST's on an R8 have you driven before resurfacing?

 

[Ape Factory]

LOL that's a 38% exaggeration there salesman regarding Girodisc upgraded rotor weight. The Girodisc 2-piece upgraded aluminum hat slotted rotors are 380 mm x 34 mm and weigh 25 pounds.

And I know you guys like to ignore pedal feel and threshold braking, but it matters...a lot.

Durability - the ceramic rotors, even ST's, do not like off road excursions, which is why the guys who run the track come to us for Girodiscs...along with pedal feel and threshold braking.

LOL, I'm specifically referring to the 394mm's as CCB replacements which are ungodly heavy. Even the 380's weigh more than the stock rotor. Girodisc is a good offering, do not get me wrong. I'd take them in a heartbeat over OEM discs but they are not the end all/be all. I'd take anything from AP or PFC over Girodisc.

Simply not true on the off road excursions, pedal feel and threshold braking. We've argued about this before but that's all down to pads, fluid and setup, all of which are superior on the ST discs. Not everyone has the same preferred brake feel but I dunno, maybe you know more than Price. Because we can offer multiple pads, we have something that'll work for everyone vs the OE rotor which can't use any of Pagid's RSL line. You can totally sink feel on an iron rotor setup with the wrong pad so it has nothing to do with the inherent properties of CCB's (work from cold, more consistent pedal, more consistent overall braking in a wider temp range, etc....) And maybe you didn't notice they're actually using these in a pro race series now (International GT where they, you know, track. A lot.

I have clients who went through their Girodiscs in one year. Typical ST track mileage is around 4-5K miles before needing a refresh. So you could see 15K track miles. Figure out your average track length near you and see how many laps that is. Then look at a typical 30 minute session and how many laps the average track day enthusiast does. There's one Porsche guy who apparently went 10,000 miles before the first refurbishment. We're all different when it comes to braking, some are harder on components than others, some run in a heavier car or with slicks. We've got a local McLaren guy who goes out to COTA on a regular basis and he's yet to refurbish his and that's a fairly fast track.

 

[extrablack]

What are these off road excursions you talk about.

 

[JuddS]

We need r8 talk to weigh in on this fight and talk badly about both products then push his. I prefer a brawl over an2 person fight for my entertainment.

but seriously ape guy, sell your benefits and don’t knock another guy on here. It’s too tiring to have the back and forth and doesn’t come across well.

paleo, there are better deals on alibaba for rotors so your time selling them on here is limited. It’s catching on quickly what a great place alibaba is to get genuine oem parts and upgraded mods. It’s totally legit and less than half the price. A stripper even verified it once but them the mods lost a cut of commission so they deleted the evidence.

 

[Scott-AhlmanPerformance]

LOL, I'm specifically referring to the 394mm's as CCB replacements which are ungodly heavy. Even the 380's weigh more than the stock rotor. Girodisc is a good offering, do not get me wrong. I'd take them in a heartbeat over OEM discs but they are not the end all/be all. I'd take anything from AP or PFC over Girodisc.

Simply not true on the off road excursions, pedal feel and threshold braking. We've argued about this before but that's all down to pads, fluid and setup, all of which are superior on the ST discs. Not everyone has the same preferred brake feel but I dunno, maybe you know more than Price. Because we can offer multiple pads, we have something that'll work for everyone vs the OE rotor which can't use any of Pagid's RSL line. You can totally sink feel on an iron rotor setup with the wrong pad so it has nothing to do with the inherent properties of CCB's (work from cold, more consistent pedal, more consistent overall braking in a wider temp range, etc....) And maybe you didn't notice they're actually using these in a pro race series now (International GT where they, you know, track. A lot.

I have clients who went through their Girodiscs in one year. Typical ST track mileage is around 4-5K miles before needing a refresh. So you could see 15K track miles. Figure out your average track length near you and see how many laps that is. Then look at a typical 30 minute session and how many laps the average track day enthusiast does. There's one Porsche guy who apparently went 10,000 miles before the first refurbishment. We're all different when it comes to braking, some are harder on components than others, some run in a heavier car or with slicks. We've got a local McLaren guy who goes out to COTA on a regular basis and he's yet to refurbish his and that's a fairly fast track.

380's 1.5 lb more than stock. 394's...have to verify but I believe only another 2 pounds. So still way off.

Humans can control very linear and direct response. We are awful at non-linear responses. This is universal. Not a preference. For example, like pushing hard on the brake pedal and getting very little braking force that first instant then suddenly a ton of brake force. I pushed Price on this with the ST's. He could give me nothing objective nor even subjective from him driving them back to back on the track. He gave me the same kind of personal preference speak. No one prefers brakes to act this way when given the option. Regarding knowledge of engineering performance in racing and passenger cars...true engineering of IndyCars, NASCAR Cup, performance street cars...yes.

International GT "pro" is a loose term like in SRO, far less than even IMSA where the only true Pros are in GTP or a class like GTLM. Further, regarding ST's all cars in class are on the same brake are they not? They don't get to choose brand or type do they?

Our Girodiscs have seen 12,000 miles with 3,000 miles pushed on the track. Smooth as silk still and my track pads (Raybestos ST-43) and street pads have 75% life left.
so you note mileage on the ST's but just state a time frame on the Girodiscs...one year, but I would nearly need a refresh of ST's if I had them. Not a chance they will be close to the same wear or cost. What's your total cost for ST's with 2 refreshes? $15,000+? Girodiscs will do that and then some for $2400 on the R8...for all 4.

 

[Ape Factory]

We need r8 talk to weigh in on this fight and talk badly about both products then push his. I prefer a brawl over an2 person fight for my entertainment.

but seriously ape guy, sell your benefits and don’t knock another guy on here. It’s too tiring to have the back and forth and doesn’t come across well.

paleo, there are better deals on alibaba for rotors so your time selling them on here is limited. It’s catching on quickly what a great place alibaba is to get genuine oem parts and upgraded mods. It’s totally legit and less than half the price. A stripper even verified it once but them the mods lost a cut of commission so they deleted the evidence.

So it's ok for Scott to knock my product but not his? Get real. I never knocked anyone simply pointing out facts.

 

[Ape Factory]

380's 1.5 lb more than stock. 394's...have to verify but I believe only another 2 pounds. So still way off.

Humans can control very linear and direct response. We are awful at non-linear responses. This is universal. Not a preference. For example, like pushing hard on the brake pedal and getting very little braking force that first instant then suddenly a ton of brake force. I pushed Price on this with the ST's. He could give me nothing objective nor even subjective from him driving them back to back on the track. He gave me the same kind of personal preference speak. No one prefers brakes to act this way when given the option. Regarding knowledge of engineering performance in racing and passenger cars...true engineering of IndyCars, NASCAR Cup, performance street cars...yes.

International GT "pro" is a loose term like in SRO, far less than even IMSA where the only true Pros are in GTP or a class like GTLM. Further, regarding ST's all cars in class are on the same brake are they not? They don't get to choose brand or type do they?

Our Girodiscs have seen 12,000 miles with 3,000 miles pushed on the track. Smooth as silk still and my track pads (Raybestos ST-43) and street pads have 75% life left.
so you note mileage on the ST's but just state a time frame on the Girodiscs...one year, but I would nearly need a refresh of ST's if I had them. Not a chance they will be close to the same wear or cost. What's your total cost for ST's with 2 refreshes? $15,000+? Girodiscs will do that and then some for $2400 on the R8...for all 4.

Girodisc owners have weighed their own rotors and they almost always come in heavier than what Girodisc claims. There is no way in hell a 394x38mm iron disc weighs anywhere close to 26 pounds unless you Swiss cheese it to the point of ineffectiveness. Even if it were 30 pounds (it's heavier, trust me), that's a 50% loss in rotating and unsprung mass running a carbon ceramic rotor. You claim all these shortcomings yet every major manufacturer equips their super and hyper cars with carbon ceramic brakes. Brembo has even gone to great lengths to produce their own hyper expensive version to go around ST patents. They're now found on Gordon Murray's new supercar as well as the Huracan STO. Now Gordon can pick any rotor he wants yet he chose carbon ceramic. Koenigsegg runs ST rotors. Have since 2004. McLaren has an ST option, so does Aston Martin.

The racing series...I'm specifically referring to the U.S. International GT series, home primarily to sports drivers, with the occasional professional driver/coach joining the action in endurance races, International GT annually presents The Stuttgart Cup, Mission Foods GT3 Cup Trophy and The Maranello Cup championships. The Stuttgart Cup includes Cayman 3.4 and 3.8 liter cars. The Mission Foods GT3 Cup Trophy features 996, 997 and other GT3 Cup cars from the last decade. The Maranello Cup includes Ferrari 360, 430 and 458 challenge spec cars. All classes compete for season-long sprint championships and all have the option of running ST rotors if they so choose. They are not forced to use the rotors but there's now a balance in cost. The ST rotors will last longer and thus not need replacing as often as their iron counterparts making them cost-effective. Carbon discs were mostly banned for disparity reasons, to level the playing field and improve racing action.

On the linear/non-linear, it's just a straw man argument. You insist carbon ceramics can't be linear in feel and I know for a fact they can. Hell, even the Brembo CCB's can. My setup is wonderful in that regard, granular even. It'll have more to do with the caliper, brake master cylinder, even the fluid and brake lines being used. There are many non-linear tasks humans do just fine (ask any musician who plays a stringed instrument) at but neither of us is an expert in human physiology and it's just an assertion to validate your point of view.

Not everyone likes initial bite. Price is one of those people and prefers less initial bite and longer brake pedal travel. You can get that with the ST discs and the RSL29 pad. If you want more initial bite, go RSL1. Raybestos ST-43 is a great pad as you know but I could swap in something else and absolutely ruin your preferred feel. Has nothing to do with whether the disc is carbon ceramic or not. Further, one could also experiment with the Project Mu carbon ceramic pads or even Carbotech pads to dial in their preferred feel. I'm sure there will be even more on the horizon from some pretty big names.

On your longevity claims, you seem to be the one outlier. I have one client who went through a set of Girodisc rotors in about a year. I think he may have had four track days? I'll check but his car is far less powerful than an R8 V10 albeit slightly heavier.

I'm not sure why you think the ST rotors would need a refresh after a year and 3,000 miles? On average, they'll last 4-5K miles of track time but many go far, far longer depending on whether you're the last of the late breakers or are into mid-corner speed. Let's take VIR. 3.27 miles around. Being really generous, based on your brake longevity, let's say you run a 2:10 lap on street tires in the R8. What are most sessions these days? 45 minutes? Let's assume you run balls out for all 45 minutes and you're super consistent and nail a 2:10 every lap. That's 2700 seconds. At 2:10 a lap (130 seconds) you've done 20.7 laps. Let's round it UP to 21. Twenty one laps that are 3.27 miles around is 68.67 miles. Let's say there are four sessions that day. That'll total out to 274.68 miles. Let's call it 275. So one track day at VIR, 275 miles. To reach 4,000 track miles you'd need to do 14 track days in a year. At 5,000 miles, we're looking at 18 days on track. I know Chin is $1100 at COTA for a two day event so if you do two days, all sessions, you're looking at nine track events per year at about $10K not including consumables, hotels, and other costs. So maybe you do at most, one or two a year AND daily drive the vehicle. Can't see you needing a refresh ever really. And all that time your car is performing at a higher level than with iron brakes.

I mean you're a chassis guy right? Surely you understand the benefits of rotating mass reduction and a reduction in unsprung weight. I don't see Girodisc as even being a competitor. ST rotors are a more expensive, higher performing component period. Not everyone can afford them and I get that. Like I said earlier, Girodisc makes a fine product. I may even consider adding them to my own lineup to offer a cheaper alternative for customers. If money were no object, and I insisted on staying with iron rotors, I'd look at PFC or a few other offerings.

 

[Scott-AhlmanPerformance]

What are these off road excursions you talk about.

Leaving the track...missing a corner, brake fade (happens with stock rotors), etc. It happens for amateurs and pros.

 

[Scott-AhlmanPerformance]

Girodisc owners have weighed their own rotors and they almost always come in heavier than what Girodisc claims. There is no way in hell a 394x38mm iron disc weighs anywhere close to 26 pounds unless you Swiss cheese it to the point of ineffectiveness. Even if it were 30 pounds (it's heavier, trust me), that's a 50% loss in rotating and unsprung mass running a carbon ceramic rotor. You claim all these shortcomings yet every major manufacturer equips their super and hyper cars with carbon ceramic brakes. Brembo has even gone to great lengths to produce their own hyper expensive version to go around ST patents. They're now found on Gordon Murray's new supercar as well as the Huracan STO. Now Gordon can pick any rotor he wants yet he chose carbon ceramic. Koenigsegg runs ST rotors. Have since 2004. McLaren has an ST option, so does Aston Martin.

The racing series...I'm specifically referring to the U.S. International GT series, home primarily to sports drivers, with the occasional professional driver/coach joining the action in endurance races, International GT annually presents The Stuttgart Cup, Mission Foods GT3 Cup Trophy and The Maranello Cup championships. The Stuttgart Cup includes Cayman 3.4 and 3.8 liter cars. The Mission Foods GT3 Cup Trophy features 996, 997 and other GT3 Cup cars from the last decade. The Maranello Cup includes Ferrari 360, 430 and 458 challenge spec cars. All classes compete for season-long sprint championships and all have the option of running ST rotors if they so choose. They are not forced to use the rotors but there's now a balance in cost. The ST rotors will last longer and thus not need replacing as often as their iron counterparts making them cost-effective. Carbon discs were mostly banned for disparity reasons, to level the playing field and improve racing action.

On the linear/non-linear, it's just a straw man argument. You insist carbon ceramics can't be linear in feel and I know for a fact they can. Hell, even the Brembo CCB's can. My setup is wonderful in that regard, granular even. It'll have more to do with the caliper, brake master cylinder, even the fluid and brake lines being used. There are many non-linear tasks humans do just fine (ask any musician who plays a stringed instrument) at but neither of us is an expert in human physiology and it's just an assertion to validate your point of view.

Not everyone likes initial bite. Price is one of those people and prefers less initial bite and longer brake pedal travel. You can get that with the ST discs and the RSL29 pad. If you want more initial bite, go RSL1. Raybestos ST-43 is a great pad as you know but I could swap in something else and absolutely ruin your preferred feel. Has nothing to do with whether the disc is carbon ceramic or not. Further, one could also experiment with the Project Mu carbon ceramic pads or even Carbotech pads to dial in their preferred feel. I'm sure there will be even more on the horizon from some pretty big names.

On your longevity claims, you seem to be the one outlier. I have one client who went through a set of Girodisc rotors in about a year. I think he may have had four track days? I'll check but his car is far less powerful than an R8 V10 albeit slightly heavier.

I'm not sure why you think the ST rotors would need a refresh after a year and 3,000 miles? On average, they'll last 4-5K miles of track time but many go far, far longer depending on whether you're the last of the late breakers or are into mid-corner speed. Let's take VIR. 3.27 miles around. Being really generous, based on your brake longevity, let's say you run a 2:10 lap on street tires in the R8. What are most sessions these days? 45 minutes? Let's assume you run balls out for all 45 minutes and you're super consistent and nail a 2:10 every lap. That's 2700 seconds. At 2:10 a lap (130 seconds) you've done 20.7 laps. Let's round it UP to 21. Twenty one laps that are 3.27 miles around is 68.67 miles. Let's say there are four sessions that day. That'll total out to 274.68 miles. Let's call it 275. So one track day at VIR, 275 miles. To reach 4,000 track miles you'd need to do 14 track days in a year. At 5,000 miles, we're looking at 18 days on track. I know Chin is $1100 at COTA for a two day event so if you do two days, all sessions, you're looking at nine track events per year at about $10K not including consumables, hotels, and other costs. So maybe you do at most, one or two a year AND daily drive the vehicle. Can't see you needing a refresh ever really. And all that time your car is performing at a higher level than with iron brakes.

I mean you're a chassis guy right? Surely you understand the benefits of rotating mass reduction and a reduction in unsprung weight. I don't see Girodisc as even being a competitor. ST rotors are a more expensive, higher performing component period. Not everyone can afford them and I get that. Like I said earlier, Girodisc makes a fine product. I may even consider adding them to my own lineup to offer a cheaper alternative for customers. If money were no object, and I insisted on staying with iron rotors, I'd look at PFC or a few other offerings.

I won't try to respond to all of this except a few main points as we will continue to go round and round.

My main issue and comments above regards your extreme exaggeration on Girodisc weight (25 lb). I weighed my 380's. That is a real number. Not marketing. Another 5 pounds for another 14 mm diameter is a stretch, but not nearly the exaggeration of 15 pounds more as you first noted. Easily measurable numbers. So don't exaggerate and then I have no issue.

Humans and dealing with Reponses - Music and driving a car at speed/limit handling are very different things. The infinite responses of the ~3,500 lb car to brake, steer and throttle versus the math of music. One is heavily biased to response and one is being "driven" by the artist (they are not responding to a projectile hurling through a corner. As a 28 year vehicle dynamics engineer winning many races with world-class drivers like Rahal, Papis, Brack, Kenseth, Edwards, Ambrose, etc and amateur non-trained drivers as well as being a performance driver myself (one of the few certified at Ford to drive the GT at the limit including 180 mph+ through the banking) what is needed is clear. A very predictable response. The output is very inline with the input. Linear. Very predictable. Think big flat engine torque curve versus peaky (even with more peak power). One is easy to drive. One is much harder to get the same speed. Come drive a double lane change, slalom, carve a 90 mph limit corner, drive 200 mph into the banking and I will show you the difference between an "edgy" car that is hard to drive and one that is very predictable. The brakes are a huge part of this system.

CCB's and ST's. When I asked Price about my challenge with prior CCB's for me and the lack of braking at first then ramping up very quickly he did not argue that ST's were different. He did not argue the ST's had the feel and feedback of iron. He did not give me back to back lap comparisons (Girodisc vs ST's with no other changes) at COTA or otherwise. Instead this driver preference discussion. Of note, there are CCB's out there that feel like iron apparently though I have not driven them. I was hoping Price would give me that honest feedback - that the ST's had the same feel as iron along with the weight and rotating mass advantages. He did not. So I was not referring to all CCB's, at this point.

Unsprung weight - yes 28 years. Do the vehicle dynamics analysis. Compare them back to back. It is not nearly the difference or advantage so many claim even on rough roads. I was amazed as a young IndyCar engineer the unsprung mass claim is way over exaggerated. You would be surprised since this has been said forever...weight matters in general - especially with a 3000 lb sprung mass. Or even in much lighter IndyCar. Rotating inertia - that is different and I agree on the advantage with CCB's

Durability - I was going off of your numbers above for freshening. Perhaps I misunderstood or you miswrote. Regardless even one set new of each...I can buy over 6 sets of Girodiscs to one new set of ST's. No refresh costs. The numbers don't add up to me regarding your claims on being cheaper in the long run. In addition, very, very few of these guys run their R8's more 2 track days per year. 90% of them do not run on the track.

I have nothing more to say on this stuff. As noted, my primary issue and response was your severe exaggeration for sales. The rest well...this is been my life and path since I was 2. 50 years ago. A balance of practical experience and theory knowledge. My results speak for themselves regarding knowing what is needed for chassis design and vehicle dynamics. In the end, there is nothing us engineers dislike more than "sales" speak.