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I dint know EZ. Yes, It's surely true that winter tires would be much better to have but i think it's a real overexageration to worry too much about having the summer tires in the winter. I drive totally differently in the winter and don't at all push the car in the cold. The tires work fine. I leave more stopping space.

Who says they don't work? The tire manufacturers who are trying to sell winter tires? And what exactly is the loss in a 65mph to zero stop on a highway in a major city with treated roads and warmth from the friction from traffic? I doubt too much. Still stops faster than most regular cars on the road.
 

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Even without snow on the ground, you shouldn't drive on summer tires below around 40 degrees - they're just dangerous. Even if you can't feel it under normal driving, the traction is severely compromised. The summer tire compound needs warm weather to work as designed, and it'll get brittle and stiff (loses its elasticity) in cold temperatures, losing traction. Even if you're not planning to accelerate or corner hard, you'd be in a bad spot if you needed to emergency brake from highway speeds - the stopping distance could be very poor. Likewise, in really cold temperatures, the tires can crack or chip, and then you really need to replace them.
Maybe that's true under the most extreme conditions extreme speed driving / cornering /stopping where you'd notice freezing temps....

Anything remotely normal I've never once experienced cold weather causing such an impact that it made me want to rush to tire rack to swap out summers for winters.

GTR with nt05Rs in 20 degree weather and 1500hp+ stopping / launching was fine... More bmws than I can count, and 6 winters with the R8 all fine in purely cold conditions. And while I'll 100% agree with snow any accumulation is downright dangerous... Just being freezing temps ie 0-32 Never once had a situation where it made me question being out unlike snow accumulation where I can count on one hand the times I've been out with R888s/MPSS/ GTR OEM dunlops in snow.


*also never had abnormal wear on tires from them being used in winter
 

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My current RS5 has had the rear “fin” ice over on many occasions. I rarely exceed 75mph in the winter, but the few times I may have hit that 75mph zone when the fin attempts to raise, I get an error code. All appears functionally fine after the ice is gone.

Snow tires are a necessity around here. I may be foolish, but I’m no fool.
Just clean it off if it sits outside in snow and it clears up the next day to take out. Thats what I'd do. Only once in 6 years can I recall getting a 1 time error up message from the fin and it was downright frozen shut.
 

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I live in Europe and winters can be a bit grim, even an R8 is still just a car and it works fine.
Germany has areas that gets tons of snow and harsh winters so their cars cope fine ... summer tyres are OK at 40deg and below, just be sensible and don't drive like a tool but they are not as good as winter tyres for sure. I would absolutely put winter tyres on it (buy a spare set of 19s) and just drive it, the car won't give a to$$ and every time it starts you will smile.

Mine lives outside and whilst not living in a snow zone I do drive all winter and as long as there is no ice my P4S work just fine if you don't hang it off the door mirrors around corners.
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
Reaching out to Audi, and spending a good 30 minutes in “chat”, revealed very little. They were only able to find the ground clearance on the ‘12 V8. No other gen 1 specs were available to the person I was chatting with. In fact, they didn’t even have the ground clearance for a ‘15 RS5 They are supposed to look further into It and email me.

but
2012 R8 V8 factory ground clearance is 4.33” or 110mm.
Just in case anyone else is ever looking. Or googling.
 

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I dint know EZ. Yes, It's surely true that winter tires would be much better to have but i think it's a real overexageration to worry too much about having the summer tires in the winter. I drive totally differently in the winter and don't at all push the car in the cold. The tires work fine. I leave more stopping space.

Who says they don't work? The tire manufacturers who are trying to sell winter tires? And what exactly is the loss in a 65mph to zero stop on a highway in a major city with treated roads and warmth from the friction from traffic? I doubt too much. Still stops faster than most regular cars on the road.
I'll concede that you won't necessarily notice it if you're (a) driving on a perfectly dry road, and (b) you're taking it easy.

However, it's definitely not the tire industry just trying to pull the wool over your eyes. You can search on the term "glass transition temperature" to understand the details - I know you're the kind of guy who will read up on it! In short, it's a staple of engineering around plastics, rubbers, polymers, etc. I'm not a chemical engineer, but my layman's understanding is that it describes the point (temperature) at which the compound transitions between "rigid" and "flexible" states based largely upon changes in molecular behavior at that transition point.

The glass transition temperature ("Tg") is higher in stiffer compounds (as noted in the excerpt below), meaning it transitions to this more rigid (glass like) state at a higher temperature than softer, more flexible counterparts. Again, I'm not a chemical engineer, or a tire professional, but this would seem to make sense in the context of summer tire compounds, given that these tires are intentionally made of stiffer compounds that offer lower rolling resistance and better performance in higher temperatures.

Are you going to immediately fly off the road when the temperature reaches 40F degrees? Clearly not. But the tire is clearly not optimized for these temperatures, and the chemistry here would seem to indicate it'll only get worse the lower the temperature goes. Will you notice it? Maybe most prominently during the warm-up period, and then it may seemingly "go away." But you also live in Chicago, so you're going to be dealing with temperatures well below the recommended cut-off of 40F degrees.

I'll leave you with a scenario here to ponder. You're traveling down the highway at 65 or 70mph and need to emergency brake. It's 5F degrees out. You end up rear-ending the car in front of you. Was it due to compromised stopping distance of your summer tires, or was it simply an unavoidable situation even in the best of summer conditions? Your opinion on it probably doesn't matter. Your insurance adjuster comes out to inspect your totaled R8 and notes... ah, you were driving on ultra high performance summer tires in the dead of a Chicago winter. Coverage denied. Why? Well, you were negligent, knowingly operating the vehicle with tires that the manufacturer states are only for summer use. This was a "preventable accident."

Sounds silly? Places like Quebec have apparently institutionalized this - you're at fault if riding on summer tires in the winter (Dec 15 - Mar 15). Moreover, insurance companies can deny a claim on the grounds that it was an "avoidable" or "preventable" accident. A Traveler's Insurance "Guide for determining motor vehicle accident preventability" seemingly quotes the National Safety Council (NSC) definition on preventable accidents as: "a preventable collision is a collision in which the driver failed to do everything reasonable to avoid it." A pretty broad definition that leaves plenty of room to point to your negligent choice of tires as the culprit... especially useful if it helps avoid a six figure claim.

And hey, the guy you hit, he's seeing dollar signs - you were in a fancy supercar, and he's now complaining of back pains. Never mind his chronic back issues, he's found a meal ticket for the surgery he couldn't afford up until now! :) Or... what if the person you hit died? Insurance has walked away from you, and you're staring at a lawsuit from the grieving family. Now you've got to prove your bad choice of tires had nothing to do with it... despite an entire industry that says otherwise.

Sure, that's all worst case scenario stuff, and you could easily argue none of it will come to pass. None of it LIKELY would, statistically speaking, again I'll concede. But, that's an expensive gamble... one that could cost a pretty penny.

Font Screenshot Document Number


You may also find this helpful - a Chicago area law firm's take on "at fault" injury based upon bad tires and negligence. While they don't speak to improper equipment (maybe not enough people choosing to drive around on summer tires in Chicago winters??), the general concepts should apply here. You may need their number - don't lose it! :)

 

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I've had issues with "Summer Tires" on my S5. It was my DD, many trips to Manhattan and back, around 65 miles each way. With a little stuff on the road, the car was alll over the place. I loved the car, but it was a lease and I got out and into a Q5 TDI asap. If I bought it, I may have invested in their Winter Tire/Rim package, but I did not. The front of the car was also getting abused on the highway, so I decided to bail. I have a GMC Denali Diesel for the Winter and even my little Honda with AWD does very well. Ugly as hell, but it gets the job done. I will never drive my R8 in the Winter, but to each his own. If that's your thing, do it.
 

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Reaching out to Audi, and spending a good 30 minutes in “chat”, revealed very little. They were only able to find the ground clearance on the ‘12 V8. No other gen 1 specs were available to the person I was chatting with. In fact, they didn’t even have the ground clearance for a ‘15 RS5 They are supposed to look further into It and email me.

but
2012 R8 V8 factory ground clearance is 4.33” or 110mm.
Just in case anyone else is ever looking. Or googling.
2014 R8 V8 stock. 5" at lowest point. I just measured.
 
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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
I’m enjoying how this has devolved into a snow tire discussion.

I’ve been driving AWD Audi’s in Vermont’s treacherous winters for over 20 years. I’ve got plenty of anecdotal references.

Dedicated snow tires on an Audi are the difference between a comfortable drive through a blizzard over mountain passes, and white knuckling it a mile to the grocery store wondering the whole time why you’re even out there.
I’ve been caught in early October snow before swapping to winter wheels. It’s downright scary. Hell, I can barely make it out of the driveway in snow with summer tires.
I repeatedly see SUV’s and BMW’s doing the crab walk uphill, or off the road, in the winter. They’ve got awd, but my bet is summer tires.

Performance tires may be adequate in cold temps if one never sees snow, but I’m sure their capabilities are comprised. Dedicated snow tires otoh are miserable performers for dry/warm pavement. I have separate wheels and tires for my daily drivers. No sense messing up decent wheels.
 

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EZ is enjoyable to have on the forum, but I want to get him on a tequila bender in Mexico and then buy him a rub and tug at ont of my favorite places.


I dont believe those studies by the tire companies just like i dint believe the Marlboro telling me they have a study telling me smoking is good for me.


The argument about coverage being denied is a very interesting one and I never considered it. But..... I'm going on a tequila bender in Mexico instead of dealing with swapping out my tires......
 

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EZ is enjoyable to have on the forum, but I want to get him on a tequila bender in Mexico and then buy him a rub and tug at ont of my favorite places.


I dont believe those studies by the tire companies just like i dint believe the Marlboro telling me they have a study telling me smoking is good for me.


The argument about coverage being denied is a very interesting one and I never considered it. But..... I'm going on a tequila bender in Mexico instead of dealing with swapping out my tires......
his detail about insurance coverage denial was pure gold. no one in their right mind should want to put their R8 in a situation where an accident would result in an insuarance claim denial. it was kind of the mic drop moment of this discussion, well done @ezmaass
 

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EZ is enjoyable to have on the forum, but I want to get him on a tequila bender in Mexico and then buy him a rub and tug at ont of my favorite places.


I dont believe those studies by the tire companies just like i dint believe the Marlboro telling me they have a study telling me smoking is good for me.


The argument about coverage being denied is a very interesting one and I never considered it. But..... I'm going on a tequila bender in Mexico instead of dealing with swapping out my tires......
Hahaha... Don't get in too much trouble there! You keep it interesting around here, Judd!
 

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EZ is enjoyable to have on the forum, but I want to get him on a tequila bender in Mexico and then buy him a rub and tug at ont of my favorite places.


I dont believe those studies by the tire companies just like i dint believe the Marlboro telling me they have a study telling me smoking is good for me.


The argument about coverage being denied is a very interesting one and I never considered it. But..... I'm going on a tequila bender in Mexico instead of dealing with swapping out my tires......
I wouldn't think of going to Mexico anymore, it's not what it used to be. The Cartel wars are insane. Mostly they kill each other, but they are not above a car jacking - especially if you drive your R8 around in Tijuana! INSANE.

I might be persuaded to go WITH some of my Mexican friends that were born there and have a LOT of family there. They know who to pay when needed.

In my younger days i was there with some Army friends and was visiting a Jai alai game... in a stadium of sorts. I had a cup of beer and asked the Federale if I could go outside with it. He said, oh yes, not a problem... I was arrested within 10 feet of the door. I asked the other Federale if it was "ok" if I pay him and he pay the judge for me... of course he accepted gladly.
 

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I thought about the insurance claim thing today and still accept that risk. Its probably 4 hours of my time twice a year and then a grand or two for new wheels with snow tires. Any my car is worth like 70k or something. Liability is another 100k or something on a payout (but who knows). I think its a 1 in 1000 chance or less that happens. So, I still dont think snow tires are worth it for me. As long as I dont go out in actual active snow, which I rarely do, then its fine. And then when I road trip in the winter (I only spend about 40 total days in the north country during winter months), Id have to change the tires out again. Not worth it.
 

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Don’t drive on summer tires in the winter. If you can afford an r8 you can afford an extra set of wheels with proper winter tires on them. Summers will turn into hockey pucks and you Will feel very stupid explaining to everyone how you smashed your r8 on summers in freezing weather.

Also - the right move is to drive your truck in any condition where you can’t drive your r8 like an r8 is meant to be driven - so full throttle and loading it up in corners. Otherwise you are wasting your car on junk miles and risking other people crashing into you.

I drive my car year round through the Canadian winter. But I only take it out when roads are dry and I have it on winters. once the tires are warm it can be driven properly on good winter tires. Just my $0.02.
 

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I can honestly say I have not had a single junk mile in my R8. I enjoy them all more than any other car I own or have owned.

I truly do enjoy the manual VW Golf wagon though. Ripping that through the corners is pure delight. It's super slow and drives like a sports car with a bad engine. The only thing I don't really enjoy driving all that much is my SUV. I just don't like them.
 

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Please do not drive summer tires in the winter, not only are the treads not optimized for snow or ice, the compound in summer tires becomes like a hockey puck below 40F and the dynamics of the tires can become dangerous. Winter tires like the pilot alpin are great in the snow and on tarmac, but crucially the compound remains sticky in low temperatures (this is also why you should drive winters over 40F as you will wear them out quickly).
I live in the north east as well and dailyed a 700hp TTrs in alpins during the winter and now daily my 991.2TT on alpins. The R8 stays in the garage mainly due to the fact that there is so much aluminum on these cars I don’t feel comfortable with the slurry of road salt covering everything.

All of this being said if you’re in VT which regularly sees single digits and you use summer tires like PS4S, you’re a danger to yourself and others. You can do whatever mental gymnastics to try to convince yourself otherwise, but physics doesn’t care.
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