[Ape Factory]

A little testimonial about the effectiveness of the Surface Transforms carbon ceramic rotors vs. OE chopped carbon CCB's. Mark recently set the production car lap record at Philip Island in a Senna using Surface Transforms rotors. A bit hard to read so I'll retype as I didn't create the original photo with text overlay:
"We regularly drive and also track our McLaren Senna, in addition to all of our McLaren's. When the front pads on the Senna needed replacing recently, I took the opportunity to change the entire cars' rotors and pads to the Surface Transforms CCST products. We have since done another 4000km and multiple track days on the ST rotors and in a phrase 'they are brilliant!'

The bedding in process was well explained and proved to be very effective. I have found that pedal modulation is improved over the standard OEM fitment and, from cold, there is a superior feel. To this point, even wear rate seems to be better! An all-around easy decision which I remain very happy with."
-Mark Ward, Production Car lap record holder-Philip Island Australia.

 

[Ape Factory]

With Price Cobb's permission, I'm reposting this from a discussion on Rennlist, word for word direct quote. Porsche fitments have been out forever and a day and they're pretty much the "go to" disc for PCCB replacement or when upgrading the iron rotors to carbon ceramic. For those who don't know who Price is, he's pretty much a motorsports legend and won LeMans in 1990. If you ever have the chance to meet him in person, he's a wonderful conversationalist with amazing stories (as you can well imagine!) and just an amazing all-around individual.


"I've been a "lurking" forum reader for years and have really enjoyed the braking-banter here. I realize that most of us share our experiences as our own personal facts so to speak so no one can argue that person’s personal experiences, right? At the same time, we all seem to be acknowledging that none of us are operating in a perfect vacuum which can bring about different results than others have found or experienced. I love what goes on here and like that everyone is respectful. After so many years of silence I've decided to add my .02c. Note, this is long as I tend to ramble.

So here I am, yet another track person who was blessed to have been involved with many things track related. One such related thing was to have spent a lot of time testing brake components on the track. I was even around when carbon brakes began making their way into the hands of us regular racing folk which was both a blessing and a curse. (frankly, some of it was awful but I learned a lot and we all lived through it even if I did breathe/swallow a metric ton of carbon particles most of which came back up for days after each test)

There are many wonderful points being made here and I wanted to toss out some additional thoughts to consider as well. My words aren’t meant to say “this is right” or that “the other is wrong”, not at all, but more the sharing of observations I have lived and personally experienced.

Let’s first discuss Iron rotors. It is hard to beat them when using price as a significant part of your rotor-choice equation. Iron rotors are generally very robust with many options and manufacturers out there to choose from. Like anything, temperature rejection is a very important part of the rotor design and with that will come weight of the rotor. This mass (of the rotor) goes a long way towards helping the rotor and pad deal with the heat by moving that heat away from the rotor friction surface. Too this consider that you’ll also find a quite the choice of brake pads for the iron rotors as well. BTW it has been my experience that pad choice is a very important part when choosing brake components. Along those thoughts might I suggest that if you have the opportunity to take several different pad compounds out and test them back to back. Doing so will give you direct feedback as to how each behave from which you might find the one! (perhaps it best you ask the various pad manufacturer’s suggestions of pads they feel would fit your needs and go from there) Given the opportunity finding the pad that suits you make a difference. I don't say this lightly.

On occasion I hear that so-and-so’s brakes lack feel (iron or carbon) or some other related comment. Not to tread on anyone but I can guarantee you that the person who originally tested and recommended that pad/rotor combination didn’t feel that way! I want everyone to understand that most brake feel comes from the pad itself. (Yes, there are other factors that affect brake feel but the pad was number one for this in my lifetime.) In a nut shell each of us looks for our own particular feel (behavior) of the braking event all of which really means there is no single pad that fits us all.

The best example I can give is of myself vs. one of my well-known teammates as I never liked his choice of pads. The initial bite and torque given vs. heat and pedal pressure did not suit me no matter how you sliced it. If I had to describe it my feet were not as sensitive as my teammate, so I had to have a much lazier pad or I was useless. Was he right? Was I? Neither of us were right accept to ourselves. And by the way, the engineers were happy with both of us as there was no measurable lap time loss on-track because of our personal braking choices.

Now let’s look at Carbon Ceramic rotors (CC moving forward). Not having read every brake comment embedded in this huge forum, I may need to first mention that there is a pure-carbon rotor/pad combination that is common in full-on racing cars. I am not talking about those rotors/brakes. I am only discussing the more prevalent and common CC rotors we see today on many of our street/track cars. There are real measurable benefits to be found by using these amazingly lightweight rotors but as we know those first carbon rotors, the all-carbon ones, were not a good fit for the street with the most glaring fault being their poor cold temp stopping ability. As in none. Until warm a carbon-carbon brake did so little you would have had more success dragging your foot. Because of this the brake manufacturers began a search for a lightweight alternative which is how we are now using the carbon-ceramic mix so common today.

I’m also going to say that when I first tested carbon brakes back in the day, those rotors were also built up in varying manors just as we see in the various ways CC rotors are built up today.

As the streetcar manufacturers lined up for these newfangled CC rotors, it became obvious that there would need to be a way to create rotors in a less costly manor which led to them using short chopped-fiber bits of carbon compressed and “cooked” which became the de-facto most common method of manufacture. (it is more complicated than my few words here but for this discussion lets run with it)

As far as I can see the only true downside to this method of manufacturing is found (only?) at the track because they lack heat control. As good as these common short-fiber CC brakes are, excessive heat will shorten their lives considerably. (anyone who has tracked their car using the common OE supplied short-fiber CC rotors can attest to right?) We now realize that once the rotor surpasses a certain temperature their life falls away at an alarming rate but remember, and this is a huge, in the streetcar environment for which they were designed, they are golden. Long life was found with these new CC rotors over iron and to add to that there are some wonderful additional benefits the greatest which is the weight savings.

Not only did un-sprung weight go down, (simplistically this meant it was easier to keep the tire on the ground under all but the worst of times), the rotational weight went down (aiding acceleration) but their significantly lower weight made the car lighter as well. These are huge considerations particularly noting that most manufacturers are constantly looking for ways to achieve those very things and all they had to do was to bolt on carbon-based rotors.

Finally, all else being equal, a car is always quicker around the track with carbon-based rotors. (the takeaway here is "all things being equal")

Let’s get back to the discussion of tracking our cars with the standard CC based brakes vs iron. There is always a discussion of the cost differential but I say we should consider the ROI before drawing a line in the sand which can be a difficult comparison partially brought on by the choices of iron/CC brake fitments and expected brake performance.

The best iron rotors (my version of best means lowest Moment Of Inertia in the rotors made to do the job I have in mind combined with the greatest bite from pads whose feel I prefer) are not inexpensive, however, it is my firm belief that when you use the enhanced performance found in the CC brake as part of your ROI equation then the scales close up. (my scale is not your scale so in my book the ROI closes up or should I say evens out a bit? Ultimately this is foryou to say) Which brings us full circle to the track.

If the common short-fiber CC rotor was not good at dealing with the extreme heat of the track, then what was next? Suddenly the long-fiber carbon-ceramic rotor comes into existence. The commonly fit OE short-fiber rotors are simply remarkable on the street where the rotor temperatures rarely if ever reach the destructive area for this type of construction but when they do get damaged they have to be thrown out as these short-fiber rotors are not resurfaceable. Consequently, any effort to justify the typical short-fiber rotor to the iron rotor in any kind of ROI comparison you'll find the short-fiber rotors take a beating.

Meanwhile some folks in the UK concluded that strength of a long-fiber could be superior and more importantly heat control/dissipation would be as well all of which has proven to be the case. Strength? As an example (and I know this is over simplistic), go get a piece of particle board as well as a short equal-thickness piece of wood. The particle board we will call short-fiber, the piece of wood we will call the long-fiber. Now try to break them.

And heat? Best example I can offer up is this: Long Fiber- If you were to pick up a length of aluminum rod (really anything that conducts heat) and put a heat source to one end of the rod while holding the other end with your hand before long you’d feel the heat that has moved through the rod. Short fiber-Now take two or more rods that end-to-end are longer than the single piece rod but when laid parallel (not touching) and adjust their overlap until their combined length is the same overall length as the single rod. Once again use your heat source on the far end of one of the rods as just described and place your hand on the far end of the last rod. You will notice that it takes longer to feel the heat in this case as the heat will have to migrate through the first rod, across the gap where they overlap, and through the other rod/s to your hand. Overly simplistic I agree but I use this as an example to paint a picture between long and short-fiber construction.

As subsequent testing proved they were correct on both counts so they could now make CC rotors that worked just as well on the street as short-fiber rotors did but that their long-fiber construction withstood much more heat on the track now seen as a giant improvement. Along the way and as luck would have it these guys discovered the long-fiber rotors could be resurfaced just like an iron rotor further adding to their long life and potentially the ROI. (this is not resurfacing by adding material, but simply cutting the faces as you would an iron rotor thus removing some small portion of the rotor) Let's not forget that the traditional short-fiber rotors tend to rely on two measurements pointing to their need for replacement. Weight and/or thickness. Since the long fiber rotor is so adept at moving heat, weight isn’t a part of the equation.

When I used to be more heavily involved with driving and testing, I knew of several different rotor manufacturers. Today I do not know all folks who still make them yet I do know that Brembo own the lion’s share of the high-performance brake market. Thus, when looking for rotors, know that most CC rotors out there are Brembo (even if branded something else) and most often are short-fiber. Surface Transforms make long-fiber rotors and if you intend to track or even race your car because of all the benefits of a CC rotor bring along with long life, Surface Transforms stand out.

Pads: As previously discussed, the pad choices are quite large for iron rotors and it is important to find one that suits you. Today there are not as many pad options for the CC rotor today however more pad choices are coming as the CC market continues to grow. The added life and heat control of the long-fiber rotor allows a more aggressive pad than the short fiber rotor all of which point to the fact that your pad choices are opening up. I know for a fact that there are other brands testing/formulating pads now for CC use.

My final .02c? Figure out what you want out of your brakes as there is a match to your choices. And if you like to track your car don’t let the initial purchase price of generally less costly but far longer lived long-fiber rotors stop your consideration because their life will significantly change the ROI figures when the long view is taken. The long fiber rotors live so long (they are resurfaceable remember?) that suddenly the buy-in price becomes less of a factor. No question the retail pricing of iron rotors is the lowest followed by the long-fiber Surface Transforms rotors followed by all the rest of the CC alternatives. (discounts and deals don’t count in my words above)

Make your choice using the factors that fit your needs. There are great brake choices out there but the “scale” you use to make your choice is all up to you. What works for me may not jive with what works for you. As technology moves forward, there is no longer a reason to forego the CC rotors because of life. Don’t forget that their on-track behavior is amazing and when combined with the life of the long-fiber rotor? Hard to pass up.

I hope I have not muddied the waters too much as my intent was to share my past experience and knowledge all in an effort to help you define your own choice. Moving forward I will keep on “lurking” and will continue to read as many experiences here as I can and promise I will opine if I feel I can add something to the discussion. Now get out there and enjoy your cars and please continue to share your experiences. I’m sure there are many others besides me who simply love to read about it all." -Price Cobb

Hope this helps some of you when choosing brake rotors, Surface Transforms from me or otherwise!
-Michel

 

[speedrs4]

Hi

Can the brake discs withstand German motorways like the original from the manufacturer?

Tom

 

[Ape Factory]

YES. These are OE offerings on McLaren (with the track upgrade package) and Koenigsegg vehicles (standard). They're TUV approved and properly engineered. They're superior in every way to the Brembo chopped carbon cast CCB's and are substantially harder allowing for a wider array of brake pads. They also feature superior NVH for daily driving. They've been in use since 2004 on road vehicles and we've had fitments for Porsche, Ferrari, McLaren, Nissan GT-R, Aston Martin, Ford GT, Mercedes AMG GTR/S, etc...for years and years.

In fact, Brembo just introduced their own hyper-expensive version being used on Gordon Murray's new car. They had to go the uber expensive route to avoid patent infringement.

 

[Ape Factory]

Pad choices...some are interested in knowing what's available for the CCB and iron rotor replacement sets. R8's equipped with CCB's use Pagid brake pad shape 4907 front and 1287 on the rear. Iron brakes use Pagid 2931 up front and the same 1287 in the rear.

Right now all of the Pagid RSC pads would work and the RSC1 has been tested along with the RSL1, RSL29.

We're currently testing with a big brake pad manufacturer popular in Porsche circles (who shall remain unnamed at this point and time) and they'll be offering several of their existing compounds and possibly a unique compound just for these rotors and a very special car. But know there will be multiple compounds as not one brake pad makes everyone happy. You'll be able to dial in your preferred feel.

In addition, we're reaching out to Carbotech and they make several pads which work with the OE CCB rotors and should be just fine for the new ST rotors. These include the street pad 1521, track pads XP8, XP10 and XP12. Carbotech is an awesome company and their pads are made here in the U.S. If they're not in stock, they make them then and there and have them shipped within three days. The XP20 and XP24 will need testing and in that endeavor, we'll be delivering a rotor for them to test on the brake dyno. I've used their pads for years on various cars, track and street and they've never let me down. www.ctbrakes.com.

In the end we'll most likely end up with 9-12 different pad choices. There will be something for everyone to dial in their preferred brake feel.

 

[Ape Factory]

Photos! The very first set of R8-specif (Huracán/Gallardo too) rotors have been delivered to an excited forum member who has quickly test fit the front rotor and will be doing the rear later today (we all have to work!). Says he lifted the boxes off his front porch and smiled at how light they were. He'll get weights for the discs later today but I can tell you this, it'll be a great deal lighter than 30 pound Girodisc rotors and will outperform them by a vast amount, not only in wear but in outright performance. And rotating, unsprung weight is the most critical, effective weight you can remove from a car.




The "pizza" boxes.


I do have ONE MORE SET available immediately. sales@redmistracing.com if you're interested!

Full track report coming soon. Testing Pagid RSC1's and possibly Carbotech XP12's.

 

[Ape Factory]

One more, the rears fit as well! We are good for launch.

 

[Ape Factory]

Official weight is...
13 pounds front (5.89kg)
9 pounds rear (4.08kg)

Official press release...they waited til we had the rotors on the car.

Media - Surface Transforms

Discover the latest news, insight and developments from Surface Transforms here. Read articles, watch video interviews and more.

surfacetransforms.com

 

[Ape Factory]

Here's a photo of the first R8 fitted with the ST rotors, attacking VIR earlier this month during a Chin Motorsports track day. Despite learning the car and lots of traffic, he dropped over 3 seconds a lap. His other track car is a GT3 touring and he's pretty used to it. The R8 is quite different in feel but he did comment that once he figured out tire pressure the car was **** fast! Pads were Pagid RSC1's and they worked great. He's talented enough to take advantage of a more aggressive pad and will most likely try the RSL29's which he's really familiar with. He'll have his own review up soon, he's just extremely busy at the moment.

 

[R8RWSNut]

Sorry its taken me a while to post some feedback. I had hoped to post this sooner but now is the first time I was able to sit down and put my thoughts down.
Well after having the new Surface Transforms rotors on my R8 RWS I can honestly say they are fantastic! They are incredibly cool and look incredible on the car. The quality of them is very clear when you open the box but after getting them mounted on the car and seeing it with the wheels on, wow they are sweet!

But I didn’t buy these for looks!

Weight savings is awesome! Roughly saves 40 pounds from the standard steel rotors and since its un-sprung rotational weight that is significant! Especially on a heavier car like the R8.

But perhaps most important is the fact that these rotors performed exceptionally well on track. Of course, the advantage to having them on the street is lighter weight and no brake dust and they will last forever on the street.

So how did they perform on track?

Well after repeated fast laps and pounding on the brakes at VIR I experienced ZERO brake fade or overheating! They just kept going despite the car being pretty heavy and fast. Seriously! Hitting a top of 169 mph (with consistent 167 mph) on back straight and 159 on front straight (with consistent 155+mph) they just kept working. Seriously confidence inspiring for me! I was running with CHIN and the longer sessions are great if your car (and your brain) can keep going. Funny thing is I was running hard and fast and almost ran out of fuel one session because I wanted to keep going since the brakes were doing so well. The weak spot the last time I took the R8 to the track was the seriously inadequate standard iron rotors. Overheating, fade, incredibly fast wear, etc (and that was using SRF Brake fluid and Pagid RS29 pads). The overheating and fade was a huge issue so much that I really didn’t like the car on track with the standard iron rotors! I had to dial the speed way back. And I certainly could not have stayed on track long enough to do a full CHIN session. Those problems are GONE with the Surface Transforms!

My lap times dropped about 5 seconds a lap. However, part, or perhaps half of that is the fact I was running Hoosiers this time. From experience in previous Porsches at VIR, I am 3 seconds a lap faster on Hoosiers than on the Michelin Sport Cup 2s. But I could never have pushed the car hard enough on Hoosiers before on the iron rotors anyway. I do intend to run another time with the new ST rotors using the Michelin Sport Cup 2s so I have a more direct comparison. I think it will be 2+ seconds a lap. But on the Hoosiers I was running 2:00.xx lap after lap after lap even dealing with some traffic. I am pretty sure I can do mid to high 1:58’s on a cooler day with no traffic, which incidentally the first time I had the R8 on track the weather was ideal. Temps were in low 70’s and the track was pretty open and that’s when I was running consistent 2:05’s with a best of 2:04.6. This last time it was high 80’s and low 90’s and I was running 2:00 with more cars/traffic on track.

The R8 is a seriously fast car! IT NEEDS the best brakes you can get! I am happy that’s what I just put on my car! Expensive? Perhaps without any context. But when you look at the big picture, they are much less than OEM CCB and they can also be resurfaced. So not only do they perform amazing, but they also have better value than perhaps any other option available for the R8 when you factor in the longevity and performance. If you beat on OEM CCBs like I was beating on the ST rotors they will be torched in a day or 2.

The other thing is that I was running the Pagid RSC1 which is not my favorite pad for track. However, they had much better “feel” and modulation on my R8 in comparison with my GT3 that I also have the ST rotors and RSC1 pads. That was strange to me. I don’t like them on my GT3 but I did on the R8. However next time I plan to use either Pagid RS29 or Carbotech XP12. You can’t use the RS29 on OEM CCB but it is one of the recommended pads by Surface Transforms for their rotors on the track. So, I think they will also help my lap times and confidence in the future. I am anxious to try it. They were not available last time so I stuck with the RSC1.

I am incredibly happy with the ST rotors and would highly recommend them for any R8 owner that wants the best performing and lightest rotors available that will also outlast anything else! Whether you are a track guy or not, these are the rotors to get!

I am very happy with this upgrade and wanted to share that with the R8 community. These rotors work on Gen 1 and Gen 2 cars from what I understand.

I can also say that Michel from Red Mist Racing was not only knowledgeable when helping me get set up with these rotors, he was also very professional and fun! He is a car nut, and it shows! I highly recommend him as well. He is the one that pushed Surface Transforms to make the rotors for the R8. They already have been selling for Porsches and other brands so its cool that we had someone to show our cars some love and help us get these things.

I actually upgraded the front calipers to the bigger 6 piston calipers that come with the OEM CCB rotors even though they are coming out with the rotors to work with the stock 8 piston calipers that are on the base and RWS cars. I didn’t want to wait, and I like to do upgrades anyway, so I went ahead and swapped the front calipers out. Michel was helpful with that in helping me figure out the parts needed. But you don’t need to do that if you want to keep your standard calipers. That is a much simpler option for sure. If the other rotors were available at the time, I would have probably just gone that route.

I hope this post is helpful to the R8 guys here. I don’t post a lot but I am very excited about these rotors so I wanted to share my experience.
I see that some guys are spending $15k-19k to upgrade to the OEM CCB set up. WHY? These are a much better value! And if you want to get the OEM CCB calipers you can still do that and get the ST rotors that work with them for still less than buying a set of USED OEM CCBs. As a matter of fact, if you want to have the gray color calipers like the OEM you can just get the new front calipers from Porsche BRAND NEW for about $850-900 each and then have them and your stock rear calipers powder coated to match the Audi OEM Gray. You will end up spending max $15k for everything including pads and the far better Surface Transforms rotors AND have brand new fresh calipers instead of buying something used for more money. Or you can just keep your stock calipers and get the ST rotors that work with them and save a few thousand or more. Either way I think it would be crazy to not go with the Surface Transforms if you want to do any serious brake upgrades. Some guys spend more on carbon fiber pieces than what I spent on a serious performance upgrade. To each their own I guess, but I buy my cars for me to enjoy driving them. And for me this car NEEDED better brakes for me to enjoy driving it and especially pushing this car on track. Truthfully I would have probably sold the R8 if this brake upgrade wasn't available.

Full disclosure that Michel offered to give me the group buy discount by refunding me the difference if enough guys buy these rotors to make the group buy happen. But I don't even want the discount from him even if my experience helps anyone decide to buy these things. I am just happy that he has made these rotors available for us now. If anyone has any questions that I can answer based on my experience I will be happy to try and help.

 

[Ape Factory]

Thank you for your feedback, much appreciated R8RWSnut. I didn't realize you'd gone that much faster than your last outing so great news there! With your past experience on the RSL29's that may be the ticket for you. By the time the next track day rolls around we may have some additional pad options.

Forty pounds of rotating mass is no joke.

And even though the group buy never got off the ground, if there is still interest, I'm still game. Can be either the CCB or iron rotor upgrade set. I believe in these rotors strongly enough and want to get them in the hands of some capable R8 owners.
-Michel

 

[Ape Factory]

I have two more sets available for purchase. I have a CCB-replacement set and one inbound iron upgrade rotor set that'll be here in a week! sales@redmistracing.com

 

[Ape Factory]

Bit of publicity for the ST rotors from Audi Club NA and if you didn't know, the Audi Club North American national meet is being held in my home town of San Antonio as well as Austin, where we'll have a track day event at Circuit of the Americas. October 8th-10th with the track day on Saturday. I know there's a large coalition of R8 owners planning to attend.
Audi Club North America was nice enough to publish a bit about us! Good to see these finally gaining some traction. Surface Transforms Latest Audi Offerings - Audi Club North America

 

[R8RWSNut]

Very cool for ACNA to publish! Hope everyone can start to appreciate what I got to experience myself! Looking forward to more track days in the R8 with the ST rotors and maybe some different pads as well. I would love to make it COTA for the ACNA National Meet. Not sure if I can do that yet.

 

[Ape Factory]

Be great to have you here. I'll find out if the Audi Experience cars are available for the track day. They use V10 Plus models and go through CCB's like butter on hot corn (I think that's a Price Cobb quote). Yes, I'm trying to get them to use ST's instead but politics may get in the way.

 

[R8RWSNut]

RWS > V10+

By the way they called the 2018 a RWD but they should know its a RWS....😂

 

[Ape Factory]

Sorry for the redirect, but a really interesting read on the Surface Transforms rotors vs. full-on high $$$ brake kits consisting of iron rotors/aftermarket calipers (AP, PFC, etc...). Read through the entire thread. You'll think you have the "answer" until the last few posts in the thread. Just a really good read!

Brake System Upgrade for Track Use - Rennlist - Porsche Discussion Forums

991 GT3, GT3RS, GT2RS and 911R - Brake System Upgrade for Track Use - Looking for a better braking system upgraded to my GT3RS that I track 15-20 days a year. Really looking between the Surface Transform CCB, the PFC Track Day pkg, or the AP-Racing brake kit. Price for all three is about the...

rennlist.com

 

[R8RWSNut]

I read that post and I think my eyes crossed a few times hahaha. Seriously it was a thorough post and I think the poster is not only knowledgeable but also experienced over many years in racing.
He was very thorough and I hope people get the point to give the ST rotors a serious consideration.
Its unfortunate that more R8 owners aren't as interested in spending money on this most important upgrade.
Spend thousands and thousands on carbon fiber and wheels for appearance but do not prioritize one of the most important - if not THE most important - aspects of a high performance car.
I may have mentioned it but if I couldn't do the brake upgrade on my RWS, it would have been sold. The stock brakes were a sorry disappointment to me.
An R8 NEEDS better brakes.
The ST rotors are the clear choice for me!

 

[Ape Factory]

Yeah very true...We need to start an R8 track support group. The R8/Huracan both make a great track car and I wish I saw more of them hitting closed courses. It ain't a cheap sport by any means but the GT3 and base R8 are at a similar price point yet the Porsche guys are far more willing to spend big bucks on products that actually increase performance. We'll get there!

 

[Ape Factory]

We are now officially back-ordered on these. Sold the last set two weekends ago (thanks G!) and are currently back-ordered until late September, early October for either the CCB replacement or iron rotor upgrade set. Get your order in now for the next batch!