Sorry Jim, but I would have declined the invitation. I believe that the sales manager was wrong in even offering the test drive. Technically ... The sales manager put you in one of those awkward situations. You want the test drive, but deep down ... You know it may not be "proper". Sounds like everything went well and you ended up purchasing a fine R8.

 

I would have declined the offer. If you dropped off your car for service would you want some random guy driving your car? In my eyes that's joyriding. Test driving a demo or a used car is one thing. Driving a customers car is big a no no. Sounds like a pretty shady dealership.

 

I would have declined as well. Thanks but not thanks is what I would have told the GM. You stated that the other car you bought (SLR) was the most uncomfortable car to SIT in as the seats were just not good for your torso. At most, I would have probably just sat in the customer's R8, adjusted the seats to my desired driving position and see if it was comfortable or not. As others have stated, how would you feel if the roles were reversed and that was your R8 being taken out for a drive while in service? I would be livid if it were my car.

 

It's not your fault the dealership offered.

Dealer is a douche.

 

I would have declined if I knew the circumstances.

 

Jim, same here - would have declined.

It would have made me really uncomfortable - this is some guy's car in for service. I can't believe he leaves a standing invitation with the dealership to allow perfect strangers to test drive his car. Right? So, I'd naturally conclude that the dealer was suggesting we illegally take the guy's car for a joyride. And to be honest, I probably would have shopped elsewhere and certainly NEVER brought my car for service at that dealer... for fear they'd be taking it out in a similar fashion, themselves or with perfect strangers.

Beyond the moral issues, I would have declined simply for fear of an accident and personal liability. If the owner didn't give permission (and I'm pretty sure he didn't), what would happen liability-wise to the driver in the event of an accident? His insurance could deny a claim - yours as well. Could you be left with a six figure bill on your hands? Or worse yet, the damage is bodily - and medical bills, law suits, etc.? So beyond the moral issues, I think gray areas of liability concern would have kept me FAR away from getting behind the wheel.

Now, that said, I'm not passing any judgment here - we all do things that may not perfectly reflect on our overall character... so I wouldn't go so far as to say your decision here is a character flaw of any kind.

 

The part you are missing is it isnt about what you did or didnt do, it was about the rights of the owner. The dealer had no business offering you a drive nor you taking one. The injured party is the owner

 

Decline, even if the owner himself handed me the keys.

All bets are off if there's an accident, guy could sue etc, no thanks.

 

I also would have declined, for ALL of the above mentioned reasons

 

I probably wouldn't have thought of this at the time, but in hind site perhaps saying "I'm sure you're right, but can we call the owner to confirm before we take it out for a spin?".

 

Interesting dilemma in legal/ethical/moral/ functional reasoning. I can't cay for sure that I wouldn't take the test drive, given the scarcity and the dealer's willingness.

My reasoning would have been that the DEALER retained CUSTODY of the car, and therefore it is his legal and moral right and responsibility to allow only authorized drivers to drive it. Because the dealer authorized you to drive it, if he acted illegally, unethically, or immorally in doing so, that's 100% on him. You had a legitimate interest in a test drive. I do not believe you had signed an agreement to provide moral police work to the dealer on behalf of the owner, other owners, or the world at large.

That being said, now you have been warned. It's now 100% on YOU to understand fully that when your leave your car in their shop, you are also tacitly consenting to having random guys and their girlfriends drive your car (morally, not legally).

Using this dealer for a test drive is one thing. Trusting your car to this dealer is quite another. Providing moral correction to this dealer is yet another function, but one that, in my opinion, cannot fairly rest solely with you.

You can make some contribution toward moral correction, though. If you make a service appointment with this dealer, show up, have your tire pressures checked while you wait, and then drive home, you'll get a satisfaction survey some days later. In that, you can tell the whole story about the salesperson's lack of trustworthiness and name names. This would likely be much more effective than having simply refused the test drive in the fist place.

 

Id go mental if a dealership let anyone drive my car! If I were offered a test in someone elses car, I could not do it as it would be hugely taking the piss. I'd also move on to a different dealer, as that one could not be trusted.

 

I would go crazy too if a dealer let a customer test drive my car ... If I were in the OPs position I would have asked that we call the owner first to make sure it was ok ...

I know I am way to possessive over my cars and there are people out there who really don't care if other people drive their car I'd just want to confirm it first.

 

As others have said, I would have declined. The customer who owned the car was completely violated. What if you had wrecked the car or damaged the car during the test drive? What if it was your car and you found out this happened? Just imagine all the questions that would be running through your head. It's not uncommon to buy high-end cars from out of town; you should have just taken a flight or driven to the nearest dealership.

 

For such an educated group there sure is a lot of speculation based on facts that they do not have.

Here is my reply in the other thread.

Don't pay attention to S4play he's just being an ass.

There are so many possible circumstances in this situation that could have been at play here and all of you that are jumping on the legal implication / character assessment bandwagon are embarrassing.

Food for thought:

Customer has had his R8 for some time now and its coming in for service. He's been thinking to buy something else.... v10 plus, Spyder, maybe an S8 for all we know. He's been dealing with the sales manager on the potential for a trade and the GM says "hey, I've got a customer that wants a coupe but he hasnt driven one. What do you think we take him for a spin in yours while it's here for service and since yours is coming up for sale I can pitch it to him"

or

Customer ordered his car new from the dealer and got a 10% discount for the car to be used for 3 or so months as a dealer demo. (Very common here) at the end of the deal the dealer saw a chance to offer a little more discount or incentive if they can use the car occasionally to show potential customers in the future.

Both of these are very realistic scenarios and anyone with a bit of sense would consider and give benefit of the doubt before attacking someone's character out of nowhere.


The facts that we have are very very minimal in this case and a mob has formed blasting the original poster and even suggesting one get their tire pressure checked just so that they can make a complaint against the manager.

Good detective work guys!


My answer is that I would have asked more about the situation. Is there an agreement in place to take the car? Will the car be for sale? Is the owner getting something out of me driving the car?

If the answers are correctly answered I would gladly take the drive. If I felt sketchy I would then join the mob, steal his personal info, ruin his credit and make him lose his job....... Or maybe I'd just decline and state I'm not comfortable driving a car where the owner did not give his consent and let that soak in with the manager.

 

even suggesting one get their tire pressure checked just so that they can make a complaint against the manager.

Good detective work guys!

Good detective work would start with an accurate report of what actually happened. And what I had actually written was not "make a complaint," but "tell the whole story."

Because there was not enough reliable information available at the time of the event (other than the fact that the sales manager had said "I know..." instead of "I have a legal agreement allowing..."), I think it is totally fair to let Audi NA determine what the facts were and what legal protections the owner actually had. I still think telling the whole story to Audi NA is totally optional, as I said before, but forgetting these events would, in my opinion, be ill-advised.

Nonetheless, I totally agree that the OP's character is not implicated in this kind of situation, given the assumption of responsibilities assigned by US law. If anything, the OP was acting responsibly by exercising due diligence.

 

RMitchell,

You make some good points. There's no mob mentality here and nobody is lambasting the OP. The OP presented his situation and asked our opinion. If the OP had provided additional information that you suggested ... Obviously the responses would have been different.

 

Good detective work would start with an accurate report of what actually happened. And what I had actually written was not "make a complaint," but "tell the whole story."

Because there was not enough reliable information available at the time of the event (other than the fact that the sales manager had said "I know..." instead of "I have a legal agreement allowing..."), I think it is totally fair to let Audi NA determine what the facts were and what legal protections the owner actually had. I still think telling the whole story to Audi NA is totally optional, as I said before, but forgetting these events would, in my opinion, be ill-advised.

Nonetheless, I totally agree that the OP's character is not implicated in this kind of situation, given the assumption of responsibilities assigned by US law. If anything, the OP was acting responsibly by exercising due diligence.

Keep in mind I just quoted what I put in another thread where the op's character was called out and questioned. Many of the responses here may not be what I was referring to.

 

This is a no brainer, don't so something you wouldn't want done to you, end of story.

The fact that the owner won't find out is irrelevant.

Can anyone say they are ok with someone driving their car without their permission?

Whats even more disturbing is the other employees at the dealer are ok with it, suggesting they do this from time to time.

 

Gents, the OP said TEST RIDE, not test drive, which means to me that some one from the dealership was doing the driving.

I had a similar experience and I did take the offer from my dealership. We just ended going out for 10 minutes but that was sufficient for me to assess the comfort of the car on normal roads. Again, to be clear, I did not drive the car then, an employee of the dealership did.

I subsequently signed up for the Audi R8 experience at Sonoma where a proper "test drive" was conducted.

 

Gents, the OP said TEST RIDE, not test drive, which means to me that some one from the dealership was doing the driving.

This is from the the original post in the other thread....

"I was thrilled that I would finally get to test drive an R8 Coupe!"

 

Even if the dealer hadn't offered me a ride in the other customer's car, I would have suggested it....

If he would not agree I would tell him he wasn't much of a car salesman. If this wouldn't work I would slip in a 20 quid note for a short 20 minute drive.

And I would up that to 100 quid for the whole weekend. On Monday I wouldn't return the car and keep it another few days saying I would report him if he applied too much pressure.

Then I'd say I noticed that the salesman had a pretty girlfriend. I'd offer to return the car a day or two earlier if she'd accompany me for a might out on the tiles..

There are do many hypotheticals here.

In fact from now on if a dealer offered me a ride in the demonstrator I'd up the anti by asking to drive in a customer's parked car. Especially if a pretty passenger was seated next to me.

I think we are getting our knickers in a twist for no reason. Seriously, what do you think car salesmen do if you leave cars with them?

I once agreed to buy an ex demonstrator and after the deal was agreed with a deposit over the weekend the car acquired an extra 1,000 miles...

When I complained on the Monday they said a man named Jimer had insisted on taking it on a test drive...

So I think we should not be too hot under the collar on this one.

 

<<Seriously, what do you think car salesmen do if you leave cars with them?>>

Nothing I hope, the car is left with service, salesman has no business going near it.

 

That is the hope. But often cars go in for 3 to 4 days are worked only on the one day. The number of times when a car is supposed to be returned Friday but ends up Monday is all too often.

What stops a friendly salesman from asking a friendly service manager if they can take their girl out on the weekend? I suspect it happens cause they all know each other. Sometimes they will say they need to test the car on the roads and would you be okay if they added xxx miles....

For these reasons, I do not think the Jimer was way off. I'm normally punctilious about these matters, and from the way Jim writes, I think he is too. But this is one of those grey areas where there is little control. I totally appreciate the stance some of you have taken - but at the same time feel it is more grey than black and white.

Plus the salesman did say the customer would not mind......

 

Funny that whenever I bring my car in for service they have to get the R8 tech to come out to drive my car into service area, no one but an R8 tech is suppose to drive them. But this dealer offers a customer a chance to drive it? I doubt I would have taken them up on the offer but don't fault OP for doing it. I have a great relationship with my dealer and on 2 occasions have had them call me about bringing my car by for a prospective customer to check out since they didnt have one on the lot. They only did this since both times the customer was a regular buyer there and knew he was serious. Not like I have much else to do so would go over there and enjoyed car talking with customer and both times let them drive my car with me in it, they were older professionals, and in both cases they ordered R8's. Dealer has shown appreciation and thrown me a few freebies when I bring my car in for different things. Neither of my R8's were even bought from them since both times I wanted they had nothing available but I'm sure if I'm ever patient enough to order I would get a good deal from them

 

My thread has been up for two days now and to date, there have been a total 25 replies. Of the 25 replies, 20 members claim that: NO, they would NOT accept an invitation to test drive a customers R8, 3 members claim.... Yes, they WOULD accept an invitation to test drive a customers R8 and 1 member on another thread questioned my character for accepting the invitation! The remaining posts were replies to other members.

There's an old adage: “if you don't like the answer....don't ask the question” and there's the attorney's credo that states: “don't ask the question....if you don't know the answer”. Well folk's, I did ask the question because one member did put my character in question; I was genuinely interested in what my piers would do given they found themselves in the same circumstance. The results are in and the consensus is that the overwhelming number of members claim that they would NOT have accepted the invitation for a test ride.

I can't help but to wonder if the 20 members that replied “NO” were responding directly to the question based solely upon the facts as they were presented OR, were responding with outrage and sympathy for the car owner based upon an assumption that the sales manger had no authorization to offer test rides.

There is absolutely no doubt that “IF” the sales manger in-fact did NOT have the customers permission or knowledge that it would be OK to offer test ride's; outrage and sympathy would be certainly justified. However, this is an unknown, fact both to me and to the members expressing their opinions.

Being perfectly realistic, we have all dealt with car dealers and we are not naive. Therefore, it would be a rather natural human reaction to assume that the sales manager was embellishing when he stated:
“we have a customer's car in for service and I know that he wont mind if we take it for a ride”. But that would be pure speculation, and assumes facts NOT in evidence! Therefore, we have NO choice but to take the sales manger at his word! This is the very challenge every good trial attorney is faced with each time he appears in front of a jury..... to convince a jury to “ONLY” consider “facts in evidence”! That is why so many cases are settled out of court, juries are extremely unpredictable and you never know what kind of self interpretation to expect from a jury.

Given the circumstances, and difficulties involved in locating a R8 to test drive I don't agree that my actions were improper; however. I'll accept the consensus of this forum and thank the members for their thoughtful, honest deliberation to my question. What I will NOT accept is any suggestion that my actions somehow impugn my character!

Some members asked some questions and rather then answering each of them individually, I'll attempt to address their questions here.

Test ride vs. test drive:
I apologize, unfortunately I used these two terms interchangeably, I should have clearly stated that I took a “test ride”, because I did not at any point drive the customers car, due to insurance concerns, the sales manager did 100% of the driving; I was merely a very happy passenger. (sorry for any confusion)

More facts:
There are no more relevant facts to present. The event took place as I described it in this and the “Asking for a test ride....possible?” thread.

Did I question the sales manger regarding having authorization to give test rides?:
No, I did not, nor did I feel any obligation or need to query him. The gentleman told me:
“we have a customers car in for service and I know that he wont mind if we take it for a ride”.
I had no reason to question what he had just told me. However, being brutally honest here; although I was shocked and not expecting his offer, but after months of researching, calling dealers and searching for a R8 Coupe to take that coveted elusive test drive; I wasn't about to look a gift horse in the mouth; therefore, I not only seized the opportunity but given the difficulty in locating an R8, I felt that this was an extremely fortuitous case of being in the right place at the right time!
(more details on this issue under the heading - “How would I feel if this was my car?”)

How would I feel if this was my car?:
On the way home from the dealership, my wife and I actually had this very discussion. I told her that I felt the 300 mile round trip was worth while because we finally got to see and I got to ride in an R8. Because all of my concerns were now put to rest, I finally felt comfortable buying an R8. I continued: I'm not sure if he (sales manger) in-fact knew that the customer wouldn't mind us taking a test ride or if this was just a case of a car sales person just being “a car sales person”? I told her that: “if that was our car, I know that we would be pissed if he took our car for a test ride without our permission.

Legal liability:
I am keenly aware that we in the U.S live in a extremely litigious society. Therefore, I'm constantly questioning my legal exposure in any given situation. Even though the invitation to take a test ride was unexpected and my response was spontaneous, I could not perceive any circumstance I which I would have any legal culpability in the event the sales manger was in-fact lying about the customer not minding if we took his car for a test ride.

Actually to the contrary; the dealership had “care and custody” of the customers property, if the dealerships agent did in-fact exceeded the authority of the care and custody agreement; I would have legal standing for action against the dealership in the event I was injured in an accident. Ironically, despite the sales manager exceeding his care and custody authority in this same hypothetical scenario; he too would have legal standing for civil action against the dealership; additionally, he would also have entitlement to file a Workmen Compensation claim.

A forum member stated: if the dealer caused an accident, it would be a huge legal mess if the dealership did in fact illegally take the car without the owners permission. I suspect in that event, all of the plaintiffs insurance companies would pay their clients claims and subrogate against the dealerships care and custody insurance provider. Theoretically, there could be many plaintiffs involved; however, restitution would be relatively clean providing that the limits of the dealers policy were not exceeded.

Do I plan on reporting the sales manager/dealership to Audi NA?:
Absolutely not! To the best of my knowledge, the dealership and/or it's agent did nothing improper. I'm not willing to jeopardize the sales manager's career by making unfounded allegations based upon conjecture and assumptions.

Besides; in addition to attempting to sell me a car and make a commission, he was also trying to make me feel comfortable in purchasing an R8 by acquainting me with it's features and affording me the opportunity to experience this fantastic machine!

Thanks again,

Jim

 

Thou doth protest too much.

 

Another interesting and thought-provoking thread. Thanks for the additional update, TheJimer.

I would not have accepted the test ride without the owner being there to give the ok. In my case, when I first began my R8 quest in approximately 2011, I was told by several dealers that R8 test drives were not available. Like others have written, I did not feel comfortable buying a car with test-driving it first. So...I waited....3 years. Finally, I saw an ad in one of my in-state dealers, for a used R8. I contacted them, arranged a test drive, and ordered my baby shortly thereafter.

Like many others have also said, I would not want the dealer to allow others to drive my car. I more than likely would be happy to drive an interested party around in my car, however.

My two cents.

 

Here's the bottom line - if you took another persons car for a drive without their knowledge or approval, you basically stole it. If it were my car and I found out, you'd be in jail. And the salesman would be your cellmate.

Any other questions?

You want to drive an R8, go to the Audi Sportscar Experience or one of the 'racing' experiences in Vegas. Or go to a larger dealer with a couple pre-owned ones on the lot. DO NOT steal a car for a 'test drive'.

 

Too vague, clarify please.

 

Ill chime in. I consider my salesman and sales manager my friends. If my car was in for service, and they called me with the above scenario (guy looking to drive a car and order one) I would say yes. I always encourage my friends to drive my car. I just view it as a way to share the incredible experience of being in a position to own such an amazing machine. I would however, expect a phone call asking for permission. If they told me after the fact, I wouldnt send anyone to jail, but I would feel like I was taken advantage of and bring it up with my guys. In this case, a plausible explanation is that the sales manager had broached the topic with the owner previously and he said it wouldnt be a problem. As I take people at their word, I dont think there is an issue. TO ME, saying "I know he wouldnt mind" is the same as saying, "I have asked before and he gave me permission previously." Face value. If this in fact had never taken place, that is on the dealer, and would reflect poorly on their character, not TheJimer.